11-02-2004 21:11									#181
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About Turkey. Can someone explain me the logic that it is part of NATO. North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

Last time I looked Turkey did not border the North Atlantic. Nor does Poland for that matter.

	11-02-2004 21:14									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Tripledoc, in March 2003? No country was more hostile than France and Germany were.

And Russia? I think China abstained, but then again they always do.

	11-02-2004 21:16									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No country was more hostile than France and Germany were.

Save Russia, China, Greece, Belgium, and the 100 odd countries that opposed the invasion of Iraq, but it doesn't matter I suppose.

And France and Germany clearly wanted to NUKE the US to teach you a lesson, and nuke the Polish weasels along it. Ha! You had it coming.

	11-02-2004 21:17									#184
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Agreed about Russia. China's relations with the US are warming.

But it does appear that Moscow, Berlin and Paris are forming their own alliance.

	11-02-2004 21:18									#185
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Spiffor, regardless of your jokes, one could justifiably say that Saddam Hussein did have allies in Paris, Berlin and Moscow.

	11-02-2004 21:19									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Agreed about Russia. China's relations with the US are warming.

China's relations are warming with everyone.

	11-02-2004 21:20									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Last time I looked Turkey did not border the North Atlantic. Nor does Poland for that matter.

Neither do Greece and Italy.

	11-02-2004 21:22									#188
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NATO should change its name. What about Anticomintern?

	11-02-2004 21:25									#189
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Yes, just like he had allies in pretty much the whole Arab world, a large chunk of Asia, etc.

The offensive war decided by the US went completely against France's interests, and France opposed it. Just like you'd oppose France going to war against one of your clients.

This hostility to the American offensive did not mean we were hostile to America itself.

And regarding the Poles: we were disappointed that they didn't follow France and Germany like the poodle we expected them to be. Yet, even with this disappointment, there is not any reason to go to war and invade them. Maybe this little bit espace Americans, but countries generally don't decide invasions on a whim.

	11-02-2004 21:36									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Yes, just like he had allies in pretty much the whole Arab world, a large chunk of Asia, etc. The offensive war decided by the US went completely against France's interests, and France opposed it. Just like you'd oppose France going to war against one of your clients. This hostility to the American offensive did not mean we were hostile to America itself. And regarding the Poles: we were disappointed that they didn't follow France and Germany like the poodle we expected them to be. Yet, even with this disappointment, there is not any reason to go to war and invade them. Maybe this little bit espace Americans, but countries generally don't decide invasions on a whim.

Spiffor, I think you are missing the point. With Russia behaving in an increasingly autocratic manner, with their deliberately keeping bases in two countries against those countries' consent, with the dictator of Belerus doing his "thing," the Eastern front is becoming more dangerous by the minute to bordering states. They need protection.

France and Germany have recently demonstrated that they will not protect an alliance member if that members asks. Further, France and Germany have all but inked a formal alliance with Putin.

Given this, Poland and the Baltic states truly need American support and bases and need France and Germany out of the alliance.

	11-02-2004 21:39									#191
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DP

	11-02-2004 21:39									#192
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Also, note here Apolytoners who may be in denial, that Spiffor has admitted that Saddam's Iraq was a client state.

	11-02-2004 21:41									#193
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Trukey was asking for help agaisnt a non state actor. That isn't what NATO is for. It was deemed outside the scope of the organizations reach.

A state like Russia invading a member nation? No question there.

We don't move them back to Europe because basically EuroCom is a staging area (and not just for our interests). It would cost a lot more for us to move those troops from teh US to where ever every time Europe renigs on its international obligations.

	11-02-2004 21:47									#194
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Pat, I don't understand your post. Please elaborate on what you mean by "non state" actor?

	11-02-2004 21:52									#195
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Turkey wanted help from NATO to regulate and contain the flow of refugees. Basically they wanted NATO forces to build camps in Northern Iraq so the Kurds wouldn't enter urkey and cause problems (which they were doing).

Turkey did have a real problem, but it was not within the scope of NATO's designed reach. NATO was designed as a defensive alliance to defend against state actors (USSR, Warsaw Pact members, etc) as opposed to non-state actors like refugees. The mandate has been stretched to inclide terrorists, but terrorists and refugees are no where neart he same.

Or are you talking about another request?

	11-02-2004 21:54									#196
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We all know that Chirac and Schroeder are seeking not only to form a foreign-policy independent of the United States, they are seeking to form an anti-United States coalition. The Russians are certainly seeking new allies with the collapse of the Warsaw Pact. It should not be surprising to anyone to see France, Germany and Russia operating together in an anti-U. S. alliance.

Poland and the Baltic states have a lot to be concerned about. The realignment of US forces from Germany to Poland and the Baltic states is not an accident.

	11-02-2004 21:55									#197
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Pat, they asked for AWACS and Patriot Missles.

	11-02-2004 22:00									#198
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For what, were they attacked? Just becasue the NATO Allaince agrees that your request is unfounded doesn't mean their regection is against the treaty.

	11-02-2004 22:03									#199
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Pat, they were threatened with attack by Saddam.

Last edited by Ned on 11-02-2004 at 22:10

	11-02-2004 22:08									#200
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Now that America could not get international support for their anti-muslim crusade, the mission there has stopped short and ended in a quagmire.

Therefore the States and Sharon has embarked on appeasement in the middle east. The danger is now that the situation will stabilize, and thus the American government will no longer be able to hold together NATO on the grounds that the world is still an unsafe place which needs policing.

Therefore the United States has now decided to up the ante in Europe. It is hoped that by provoking Russia, Europe will become nervous and seek protection from America. Thus the Alliance can be upheld.

	11-02-2004 22:13									#201
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The United States did not ask for the hostility of France and Germany.

But, since the French and Germans appear to want to support Arab and Muslim dictatorships that are hostile to the US, we have no choice, IMO, but to kick them out of our alliance.

	11-02-2004 22:18									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The United States did not ask for the hostility of France and Germany.

Yes they did. They attacked a French-German client state.

	11-02-2004 22:21									#203
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Tripledoc, the we are agreed that France and Germany are no longer allies let alone friends. All we need now is for France and Germany to make their hostility formal by inking an alliance with Putin.

	11-02-2004 22:24									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Tripledoc, the we are agreed that France and Germany are no longer allies let alone friends. All we need now is for France and Germany to make their hostility formal by inking an alliance with Putin.

And China too. A Pax Eurasia won't work without China.

	11-02-2004 22:34									#205
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China will side with the US because of Russia.

	12-02-2004 00:18									#206
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Ned, take the blue pill.

	12-02-2004 00:21									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Ned GePap, one cannot have an enemy within an alliance that needs consensus to act.

OK, come back from the Nedaverse, please.

	12-02-2004 00:23									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Ned That is an outrageous lie.

Hmm, you mean i was an outrageous lie when they honored the pact in the case of afghanistan and the Taliban, hence the German forces there?

	12-02-2004 00:40									#209
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GePap, no, when they denied aid to Turkey.

	12-02-2004 00:42									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Ned GePap, no, when they denied aid to Turkey.

A, hello..

1. They did give aid to Turkey (at the second meeting)

2. Turkey was not under attack, and the threat to turkey would only materialize if the US took aggresive action not authorized by NATO or the UN.