14-02-2004 00:35									#31
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SpenceH, remember at the time most of us thought Clinton was doing too much. Remember Eschalon and Carnivore? They were trying to kill OBL, and they thwarted a few different terrorist attacks. The Republicans, however, repeatedly denied Clintno the authority to do what he felt necessary to go after Islamic terrorists. I'm not gonna say Cltinon is guilt free, since if he hadn't been trying to appease right-wingers with appointments like Freeh and making the Drug War top policy, maybe he would have concentrated more on terrorism. We can't know that, however. We do know, however, that the Bush Adminstration completely ignored the terrorist threat until 9/11, so one can't do any worse the Bush.

	14-02-2004 00:35									#32
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I thought its a pretty simple question, but one that goes to the heart of the matter. I dont trust that Kerry will maintain military and intel vigilance and I dont trust him to take effective action.

So you are asking that I answer your opinons? Excuse me???



Well, good for you..I don;t agree, but good for you.

	14-02-2004 00:43									#33
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quote: Originally posted by GePap So you are asking that I answer your opinons? Excuse me??? Well, good for you..I don;t agree, but good for you.

No, I'm asking whether you think Kerry would take effective military action against a threat to this country, and I cited examples of presidents that I believe did and did not do so. I then merely stated my answer to the question. You, on the other hand continue to waffle. If you ever get in, you'll make a wonderful diplomat.

	14-02-2004 00:47									#34
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH No, I'm asking whether you think Kerry would take effective military action against a threat to this country, and I cited examples of presidents that I believe did and did not do so. I then merely stated my answer to the question. You, on the other hand continue to waffle. If you ever get in, you'll make a wonderful diplomat.

If North Korea launched a missile at us... I think Kerry would respond with the full force of the US military.

What makes you think Bush is good for national security? Because he attacked Iraq? a country that didn't threaten us...

but yet Bush is coddling the Saudi's, ignoring Iran and North Korea... and placating Red China. Sounds like he's protecting America's national security.

	14-02-2004 00:48									#35
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First- I have no idea what your definition of "effective action" is. I already stated what I think his policies will be- that to me seems a rather obvious answer- left for you to decide if yout hink those policies would be effective.

I love this method of debate- ask question, get very detailed answer: "Oh no, waffling!" BULLSH!T.

Reread my answer- that is what i think kerry will do policywise. Will it be effective? I don;t have a magic ball, so how the hell do I know?

Certainly he will be more effective than the first 9 months of the Bush precidency--is that the answer you are looking for?!

	14-02-2004 00:50									#36
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara SpenceH, remember at the time most of us thought Clinton was doing too much. Remember Eschalon and Carnivore? They were trying to kill OBL, and they thwarted a few different terrorist attacks. The Republicans, however, repeatedly denied Clintno the authority to do what he felt necessary to go after Islamic terrorists. I'm not gonna say Cltinon is guilt free, since if he hadn't been trying to appease right-wingers with appointments like Freeh and making the Drug War top policy, maybe he would have concentrated more on terrorism. We can't know that, however. We do know, however, that the Bush Adminstration completely ignored the terrorist threat until 9/11, so one can't do any worse the Bush.

Interesting viewpoint.

So you would say that under the right circumstances that Clinton would have taken action? He seemed to play up the Camelot crap and Kennedy, sure as **** , would've acted.

How do you explain the debacle in Somalia? That was Carteresque in its stupidity.

	14-02-2004 00:52									#37
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quote: How do you explain the debacle in Somalia? That was Carteresque in its stupidity.

I recall Bush I first establishing a US presence there. I also recall strong Republican support, at the time.

any more BS for me to dispell?

	14-02-2004 00:54									#38
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH How do you explain the debacle in Somalia? That was Carteresque in its stupidity.

If I remember- 1. It was Poppa bush that brought the US into Somalia. Clinto ran into trouble whern he attempted, instead of just intervening to keep UN food shipments safe, to arrest the warlord (forgot his name), ie. when he decided to expand the mission- and then he got spanked by the press and the right when "blakchawk down" occured.

	14-02-2004 00:55									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Sava If North Korea launched a missile at us... I think Kerry would respond with the full force of the US military.

Thank you for your answer. Gepap take note!

But would Kerry act against a perceived threat i.e. some new fundamentalist Iranian Mullahs' vow to build nuclear weapons for the Jihad against america and intel says they're doing it.

	14-02-2004 00:56									#40
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Kerry got his Silver Star by dashing into a hootch containing dead and dying Viet Cong. He then proceeded to execute the dying and walked out with a rocket launcher.

	14-02-2004 00:57									#41
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quote: Originally posted by GePap If I remember- 1. It was Poppa bush that brought the US into Somalia. Clinto ran into trouble whern he attempted, instead of just intervening to keep UN food shipments safe, to arrest the warlord (forgot his name), ie. when he decided to expand the mission- and then he got spanked by the press and the right when "blakchawk down" occured.

absolutely correct... George HW Bush got us in Somalia... Clinton got us out.

http://www.cdi.org/adm/713/transcript.html

quote: On December 4, 1992 President George Bush announced he was sending up to 28,000 US troops to Somalia to help provide humanitarian relief in a strife-torn country where hundreds of thousands of people had died of starvation. Not quite a year later, shortly after a failed raid that took the lives of 18 American servicemen, President Bill Clinton announced an exit strategy for the United States.

	14-02-2004 01:00									#42
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Bush senior did indeed send an army into Somalia. An army that achieved its ends. Clinton reduced the force size and hamstrung the troops with PC bullshit while nation-building.

	14-02-2004 01:01									#43
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I dont recall France 'jumping in' during GW1 (but I may be mistaken)

You are mistaken. France sent a sizeable contingent during GWI, including 18,000 troops, 60 combat aircraft, 120 helicopters, 40 tanks, 100 armored vehicles, 1 missile cruiser, 3 destroyers, 4 frigates.

http://www.cryan.com/war/AlliedForces.html

The French forces were also among the first into combat, the first to secure their objectives and were widely regarded as some of the best in whole operation.

	14-02-2004 01:02									#44
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Kerry got his Silver Star by dashing into a hootch containing dead and dying Viet Cong. He then proceeded to execute the dying and walked out with a rocket launcher.

irrelevant

Three purple hearts, a silver star, and a bronze star. His war record is not the question.

	14-02-2004 01:04									#45
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH But would Kerry act against a perceived threat i.e. some new fundamentalist Iranian Mullahs' vow to build nuclear weapons for the Jihad against america and intel says they're doing it.

Clinton did more against terrorism between 1998 and 2000 than Bush has done in 3 years.

http://nsi.org/Library/Terrorism/rites.htm

The Clinton Administration wrote the basics of the Patriot Act in 1995.

quote: The legislation would: authorize the Justice Department to pick and choose crimes to investigate and prosecute based on political beliefs and associations; repeal the ancient provision barring the U.S. military from civilian law enforcement; expand a pre-trial detention scheme that puts the burden of proof on the accused; loosen the carefully-crafted rules governing federal wiretaps, in violation of the Fourth Amendment; establish special courts that would use secret evidence to order the deportation of persons convicted of no crimes, in violation of basic principles of due process; permit permanent detention by the Attorney General of aliens convicted of no crimes, with no judicial review; give the President unreviewable power to criminalize fund-raising for lawful activities associated with unpopular causes; renege on the Administration's approval in the last Congress of a provision to insure that the FBI would not investigate based on First Amendment activities; and resurrect the discredited ideological visa denial provisions of the McCarran Walter Act to bar foreign speakers

If Clinton (and liberals) are so inept at foreign policy and dealing with terrorism, how come George Tenet was kept on as CIA director when Bush took over? How come George Tenet described the Clinton/Gore White House as "obsessed with terrorism" in 2000? The right is trying to make Tenet the fall guy for the WMD mess... but the real culprit was the Pentagon Office of Special Plans. The CIA did not give the president the exagerrated intelligence that Bushy used to convince the American people to support the Iraq War.

	14-02-2004 01:04									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki You are mistaken. France sent a sizeable contingent during GWI, including 18,000 troops, 60 combat aircraft, 120 helicopters, 40 tanks, 100 armored vehicles, 1 missile cruiser, 3 destroyers, 4 frigates. http://www.cryan.com/war/AlliedForces.html The French forces were also among the first into combat, the first to secure their objectives and were widely regarded as some of the best in whole operation.

I was refering more to when the French 'got onboard' not the level of their participation at the end.

	14-02-2004 01:04									#47
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH How do you explain the debacle in Somalia? That was Carteresque in its stupidity.

Somolia was a Xmas present from President Bush. Clinton inherited the Mogadishu occupation.

	14-02-2004 01:05									#48
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Bush senior did indeed send an army into Somalia. An army that achieved its ends. Clinton reduced the force size and hamstrung the troops with PC bullshit while nation-building.

Bush created a shitstorm... Clinton fixed it.

	14-02-2004 01:05									#49
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Thank you for your answer. Gepap take note! But would Kerry act against a perceived threat i.e. some new fundamentalist Iranian Mullahs' vow to build nuclear weapons for the Jihad against america and intel says they're doing it.

AAARRRGH!!!

If you are stupid enough to think that any president would od nothing after being attacked by a foreing power or terrosit group then you are a fool of Nedian levels!

Whast the hell wouyld Bush do in the situation you outliner? Fly in and drop himself rambo style and single handedly take out the iranian military?!

Sorry, sava may be willing to answer stupid questions, but that is sava, not me.

	14-02-2004 01:05									#50
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Joh Kerry got out of the navy early by request. His request was based on an obscure rule that said that three time purple heart winners were entitled to immediate discharge.

Kerry suffered minor wounds on all three ocasions. Missed only two days of duty from all three combined. And, this he felt, entitled him to a discharge.

After which he went straight to work distorting the popular view of the war, including gross distortions of the conduct of the American servicemen.

Kerry's testimony before Congress aside, he marched in tandum with many notable socialists under the flags of North Vietnam, China, and Russia.

When Kerry was a kid he used to sail with President Kennedy. Kennedy, as you know, was the skipper of a patrol boat in WW2.

Kerry pursued a similar command so that he could manufacture a war record he could base a campaign on.
And he was sucessful.

JFKerry, the people's friend.

	14-02-2004 01:07									#51
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Look at the RNC attack dogs go.

	14-02-2004 01:09									#52
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I was refering more to when the French 'got onboard' not the level of their participation at the end.

The French "got onboard" almost immediately, and were among the first to send naval and ground forces to the region. They pushed hard for a diplomatic solution, but had no qualms about using force if that route failed.

	14-02-2004 01:10									#53
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jimmytrick: go post at freerepublic.com where you can have an audience of mopes who will believe your bullshit

	14-02-2004 01:12									#54
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God if you're going to ***** about Kerry's record, point out his faux protest where he threw away the medals he now proudly talks about on his campaign website.

	14-02-2004 01:14									#55
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Look at the RNC attack dogs go.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/special_packages/election2004/7845066.htm

	14-02-2004 01:14									#56
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DP

	14-02-2004 01:14									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Clinton did more against terrorism between 1998 and 2000 than Bush has done in 3 years.

During the Clinton years:

October 12, 2000: 17 American sailors are killed and 39 other wounded when a suicide bomber attacks USS Cole in Yemen's Aden harbour.


August 7, 1998: Twin bombings at the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, kill 224 people and wound thousands of others.


June 1996: 19 Americans killed and 500 people injured followng a bomb blast at the U.S. barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia.


November 13, 1995: A bomb at U.S. military headquarters in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, kills five U.S. service personnel.


April 19, 1995: A truck bomb at the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, kills 168 and wounds more than 500 others.


February 26, 1993: Terrorist bombers strike the World Trade Center, killing six people and injuring more than 1,000 others.


Any idea what our responses were to all that?

	14-02-2004 01:16									#58
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH If elected president, would Kerry do anything concrete if the USA was threatened/attacked or would we back to the Clintonian "fire a couple of missles and pretend like the problem has gone away".

I think the answer can be found in his past behavior:

1. He will by some other vet's medals and throw them over a fence.
2. He will tell Congress that American servicemen routinely commit atrocities.
3. He will agitate toward the goal of having American support pulled out so that the bad guys can gain ground.

	14-02-2004 01:18									#59
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc God if you're going to ***** about Kerry's record, point out his faux protest where he threw away the medals he now proudly talks about on his campaign website.

Point taken.

	14-02-2004 01:20									#60
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Look at the RNC attack dogs go.

It's gonna be a long time till November 2nd.