14-02-2004 10:48									#61
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It doesn't matter if you have the physics right. If you believe that it is physical, there's no religion involved.

	14-02-2004 10:51									#62
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Ramo
If the meaning is trivial, why are you getting it wrong? Being affected by physical laws is not the same thing as existing within the universe (if a God or a soul exists, these would be within the universe but unaffected by physical laws).[/q]

False - physical laws are those laws that determine the behavior of those thing within the universe (within the universe = exists = physical), and thus determines the behavior of God or a sould.

quote: Well, I'm sure you've explained it wrong 50 bajillion times.

*sigh*

Free will = making your own decisions. My mind makes my decisions, my mind is part of me, thus I make my decisions. Thus I have free will.

quote: You're ignoring the context in which I said that. Free will is something that affects physical objects. If something that's supposed to affect physical objects is nonphysical (God, Soul, etc.), something religious is going on (although it'd be fair to examine exactly what constitutes a religion).

PHYSICAL = WITHIN THE UNIVERSE = EXISTS

	14-02-2004 11:09									#63
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quote: If something that's supposed to affect physical objects is nonphysical (God, Soul, etc.), something religious is going on

You mean like our thoughts? They are non-physical, but affect physical objects.

	14-02-2004 11:10									#64
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Capitalizing definitions don't make them correct. Nor does writing "false" over and over again.

quote: Free will = making your own decisions. My mind makes my decisions, my mind is part of me, thus I make my decisions. Thus I have free will.

How can your mind freely pick between choices in a decision?

	14-02-2004 11:12									#65
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quote: You mean like our thoughts? They are non-physical, but affect physical objects.

Why do you say thoughts are non-physical? What exactly do you mean by a thought?

	14-02-2004 11:12									#66
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quote: free will is religious because it was first posited by religious people.

Seems clear to me.

	14-02-2004 11:13									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo How can your mind freely pick between choices in a decision?

If you disagree, please explain who (or what) the **** is choosing? My mind makes a decision. It makes it according to certain rules. That doesn't mean that my mind didn't make the decision.

	14-02-2004 11:14									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Seems clear to me.

It's ridiculous. Calculus was invented by religious people - is it religious?

	14-02-2004 11:17									#69
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You're saying that the mind is choosing. It has to decide between various choices if it makes a decision, right?

	14-02-2004 11:23									#70
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quote: Calculus was invented by religious people - is it religious?

Should havee said that right at the start.

Agathon also explains why being religious is relevant to the concept of free will.

If they are religious, and postulate free will to solve a religious problem, then free will is clearly a religious concept.

Whereas, in Newton's case, he is a religious person, who developed calculus in order to solve physical problem. Hence calculus has nothing to do with religion.

	14-02-2004 11:24									#71
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quote: If they are religious, and postulate free will to solve a religious problem, then free will is clearly a religious concept.

No more than omnipotence is a religious concept. It is a concept that can have relevence to religion. That does not make it religious.

quote: You're saying that the mind is choosing. It has to decide between various choices if it makes a decision, right?

Yes, and it chooses based on certain rules.

	14-02-2004 11:28									#72
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quote: Why do you say thoughts are non-physical?

Can you see a thought? Does it take up matter?

	14-02-2004 11:34									#73
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quote: Yes, and it chooses based on certain rules.

If the brain's algorithm dictates actions, how are there choices? At any point in time, the choice is purely a function of the algorithm.

Let me put it this way: Does a computer have free will since its coding will decide what it does? Does an ant have free will since its biological coding will decide what it deos?

	14-02-2004 11:37									#74
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quote: Can you see a thought? Does it take up matter?

In terms of electrical impulses between neurons, etc., sure. We don't have the computing resources or understanding to properly model the human brain, but I don't think that's impossible.

	14-02-2004 11:41									#75
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker PHYSICAL = WITHIN THE UNIVERSE = EXISTS

So, what about the number pi? Have you ever seen it? Is its existence affected by physical laws?

BTW, you have failed to explain why a decision influenced by outside causality is free will. Making a decision is not a criteria for free will; bacterias make decisions.

	14-02-2004 11:43									#76
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quote: In terms of electrical impulses between neurons, etc., sure. We don't have the computing resources or understanding to properly model the human brain, but I don't think that's impossible.

Bollocks.. Are you really asserting that we will physically be able to see our 'thoughts'?

quote: So, what about the number pi? Have you ever seen it? Is its existence affected by physical laws?

Are you stating 'pi' is religious?

	14-02-2004 11:46									#77
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quote: Bollocks.. Are you really asserting that we will physically be able to see our 'thoughts'?

Not with vision. And I didn't say anything about will. I don't see why it's impossible given the adequate resources and understanding of the brain, however. Can you give me a good reason why not?

	14-02-2004 11:50									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Bollocks.. Are you really asserting that we will physically be able to see our 'thoughts'?

Why not? There are lie detectors. Who knows what we'll be doing in 5000 years from now?

quote: Are you stating 'pi' is religious?

I think you guys have been uselessly picking on Ramo. No, anything non-physical is not necessarily religious. Free will, however, clearly and definitely doesn't fit into maths or any other a priori science. Ramo's statement may have been too short and prematurate, but it was obviously right at its root. Free will is a religious concept, as it is based on the existence of a non-physical, immortal soul. Is that so hard to understand?

And to make myself clearly understood: no, 'pi' is not religious.

	14-02-2004 12:03									#79
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BTW, good post, and good follow-up shepherding by Agathon.

I can only concur: most anyone with the least reasoning ability can only be a liberal. Even the true libertarians, are, in a sense, liberals. Idiots run businesses and whine about their (evaded) taxes financing philosophy classes.

	14-02-2004 12:06									#80
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quote: most anyone with the least reasoning ability can only be a liberal.

Then what would you consider me? A flaming liberal?

	14-02-2004 12:08									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Then what would you consider me? A flaming liberal?

I don't know. You don't sound that bad for a fundie.

	14-02-2004 12:12									#82
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I would happily consider myself to be a liberal, except I despise them.

	14-02-2004 12:15									#83
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quote: Can you give me a good reason why not?

Because thoughts aren't physical.

quote: I think you guys have been uselessly picking on Ramo.

When he says dumb things, he should expect to get picked on.

quote: Free will is a religious concept, as it is based on the existence of a non-physical, immortal soul. Is that so hard to understand?

Yes... because that explination just isn't true. Free Will means that humanity chooses its own path. You make a choice based on your own mental capacities.

I really don't see anything religious about it.

	14-02-2004 12:18									#84
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quote: You don't sound that bad for a fundie.

I'll take that as a compliment.

	14-02-2004 12:21									#85
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quote: When he says dumb things, he should expect to get picked on.

It's only dumb if you interpret it in a dumb way (ignoring the context).

quote: Because thoughts aren't physical.

You've never justified this.

quote: Yes... because that explination just isn't true. Free Will means that humanity chooses its own path. You make a choice based on your own mental capacities. I really don't see anything religious about it.

So ants and computers have free will? They "choose" their paths as much as we do.

	14-02-2004 12:22									#86
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And thanks, OB.

	14-02-2004 12:23									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes... because that explination just isn't true. Free Will means that humanity chooses its own path. You make a choice based on your own mental capacities. I really don't see anything religious about it.

Humanity chooses its own path, and so does a tree or a spider. To what extent is this path not related to some kind of deterministic essence remains to be seen.

There is no denying that free will originated from religion, and, as such, still hold many religious concepts. That it has evolved as it is conceived today is another story.

	14-02-2004 12:23									#88
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quote: It's religious because it's nonphysical. - Ramo, who therefore agrees that what I'm learning in Calculus BC is also religious

My Calc BC class way back when was a religious experience.

	14-02-2004 13:00									#89
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quote: You've never justified this.

It's quite obvious.

quote: So ants and computers have free will? They "choose" their paths as much as we do.

Computers don't. They just do as they are told. Ants, yeah, I think they may have free will.

	14-02-2004 13:47									#90
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quote: It's quite obvious.

No it isn't.

How do you suppose thoughts arise from then? Magic?

quote: Computers don't. They just do as they are told.

So do we. It's just that our code wasn't actually engineered by anyone.