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Tripledoc
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Did the Romans not use it in their propaganda that the Carthagenians supposedly sacrificed children?
I can imagine a situation where a future fundamentalist USA will declare war on a country because they according to 'reliable sources' are guilty of infanticide.
In reality of course the Romans had no evidence other than what their priests cooked up, or what later Roman historians have told us. In reality the war was caused by an oversupply of Roman copper coins which sparked an economic crisis.
Children today in the Third World are dying on a grand scale due to lack of acces to clean water and basic medicines. This is in large extent caused by IMF and World Bank demands that these facilities are 'privatized', and governmnet expenditure halted. Mainly because the West can't afford to pay fpr third World products in real money. I think that this is a greater problem, than an off the cuff remark by an English doctor.
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Monk
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I don't think we're in Brønshøj anymore
Jan 1970
time: 06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Logically, Sava does have a point. If a person agrees with late term abortion, there is no ethical difference between that and offing a newborn infant. |
I'm not so sure about that. The unborn child whatever its age is an extension of the mother and it lives off her ressources. Sure, the newborn still needs to be fed by others, but it's not biologically dependant on a single person.
It's ridiculous for the pro-life crowd to be afraid of the slippery slope thingy. No important politician would dare to support the principle.
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OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Sick or not, most people aren't discussing rationally in this thread.
Logically, Sava does have a point. If a person agrees with late term abortion, there is no ethical difference between that and offing a newborn infant.
For me, I hold that a baby can only be considered a person when it acquires sentience. More precisely, when it starts to have a concept of the self. |
That wasn't Sava's point, that was my point. And the infanticide doctor's point. If you cringe at the idea of killing an infant, then you should feel the same anguish at the thought of a late term abortion.
I believe I've seen evidence that points to children developing a concept of self in the womb. They discover their arms and legs, investigate them, etc. They know curiousity, fear, pain. I saw a video (though I shielded my eyes at times) that showed inside the womb during an abortion. The child recoiled from the instrument, and opened its mouth in a silent scream. Doctors who preformed abortions changed their position once they saw that video and confirmed the child very much is aware.
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Tripledoc
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quote:
Originally posted by OzzyKP
The child recoiled from the instrument, and opened its mouth in a silent scream. Doctors who preformed abortions changed their position once they saw that video and confirmed the child very much is aware. |
I have heard this story before, and I am pretty sure it has been thoroughly debunked as fanaticist fantasy.
Although I do not know in which exact way I will propose the following.
You don't present the reader with any useful information, such as the age of the fetus. The condition of the pregnant woman. Nor is information on the alleged scientist who conducted (or not?) and INTERPRETED the observation given. The fact that it is an interpretation is extremely important.
1) The man presenting this purported evidence was not neutral.
2)The recoil from the instrument might just as well have been the natural movement of the body caused by manipulation of the fluid in the womb, or pressure on the patients stomach, or a shifting in the patients body. This is in fact the most likely. There is no clear casuse and effect, which cannot be falsified.
3)The 'silent scream' of course evokes an emotional response, is meant to in fact. How can it by the very fact that the fetus opened its mouth be deducted that the fetus was experiencing pain? In order to do that electrodes would have been attached to its central nerve system and brain to see if there was a response.
If it was not a coincident, then the event might be explained as pure reflective reaction with no conscious motivation behind it. Or it happened by mere chance.
4) Most damning of all there has not been a repeat of this observation through carefully conducted experiments which have shown the same thing. In order to verify something it must be experimnented on several times.
Again there is no clear cause and effect which cannot be falsified. In fact nothing has been verified in the first instance.
5) the supposed doctors who are now converts are either idiots or should be sent back to med-school, since they clearly have no understanding, or even critical sense.
I would say that as science this 'evidence' fails abysmally.
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Jon Miller
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you know why they do what they do in partial birth abortions?
it is because the child would survive if they didn't
they are just monstrous
yet I seem to recall you supporting them Sava
with the same arguments
UJon Miller
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:33
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That was exactly my point what is inside there; there's no bigg difference between a child that passed the magical gate of vagina and the one who yet did not.
Last edited by Heresson on 15-02-2004 at 00:31
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14-02-2004 13:29
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