24-02-2004 10:14									#121
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quote: Think about this, Imran, have you seen this news out on the media? Why not?

Because it ain't an issue. It doesn't matter.

	24-02-2004 11:34									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Ned However, the only reason we were there was for the reasons I stated. We wanted to prevent a NV takeover of a nascent democracy in SV by communists

Democracy? In South Vietnam?

Which democratically elected leader are you referring to?

You mean Ngo Dinh Diem who seized control of the government in 55?

Or Duong Van Minh, who took control after staging a coup that murdered Diem in 63?

Or Nguyen Khanh who staged a coup in 64 that replaced Minh?

Or Nguyen Van Thieu who staged a coup in 1965?

Yes, Thieu held an "election" in 67, but he then rigged the election in 71.

Some democracy.

	24-02-2004 19:38									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Democracy? In South Vietnam? Which democratically elected leader are you referring to? You mean Ngo Dinh Diem who seized control of the government in 55? Or Duong Van Minh, who took control after staging a coup that murdered Diem in 63? Or Nguyen Khanh who staged a coup in 64 that replaced Minh? Or Nguyen Van Thieu who staged a coup in 1965? Yes, Thieu held an "election" in 67, but he then rigged the election in 71. Some democracy.

All true. I also remember that the debates then about whether a primitive people could support a democratic government. The arguments of the opponents of the war of course stated that our efforts would meet with failure.

I think the failure of democracy in Vietnam had a lot to do with the fact that there was no peace, not that the people themselves did not want democracy or were incapable of supporting it.

I note that the same arguments about democracy are again being raised by the left in their opposition to our efforts in Iraq.

All this goes to show is that the left are hypocrites on issue of human rights and basic freedoms. The left seems to be very much enamored with authoritarian governments so long as those governments go through the proper motions of denouncing corporations and capitalism.

	24-02-2004 20:28									#124
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quote: Originally posted by CharlesBHoff Unless we are willing to undertake military action against Vietman we chould do nothing as it is none of our bussienes. How about our support for the party in Cambodia which murrder how many million of people which only Vietman have the mortal cought to get rid of when their free Cambodia from those murderous thug support by neocom in Washington.

WRT taking action in foreign countries I think we should solve our domestic problems first. But that will never happen.

Anyway butchery happens on a daily basis and it doesn't matter to those who have the power to do something about it. They can at least voice protest or consider economic sanctions. Or go to the UN.

However I'm very disgusted with mankind these days. It seems that people in power have only one goal. To get rich and to stay in power no matter what. The little people are all expendable..

	24-02-2004 20:41									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Cookie Monster WRT taking action in foreign countries I think we should solve our domestic problems first. But that will never happen. Anyway butchery happens on a daily basis and it doesn't matter to those who have the power to do something about it. They can at least voice protest or consider economic sanctions. Or go to the UN. However I'm very disgusted with mankind these days. It seems that people in power have only one goal. To get rich and to stay in power no matter what. The little people are all expendable..

That is why democracy is essential. That is why our cause in Vietnam was just.

	24-02-2004 21:13									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Ned All true. I also remember that the debates then about whether a primitive people could support a democratic government. The arguments of the opponents of the war of course stated that our efforts would meet with failure.

You mean the debates by sets of arrogant white men who were mostly interested in how they could get a bunch of gooks to consistently support the white master's geopolitical aims?

quote: I think the failure of democracy in Vietnam had a lot to do with the fact that there was no peace, not that the people themselves did not want democracy or were incapable of supporting it.

The failure of democracy was a result of the fact that all those who held, or would be allowed to hold, any power were connected to one or more of the military, an elitist Catholic minority who detested the peasants, French ex-colonial interests, and/or American geopolitical interests. On the flip side, you had the commies. The US was not interested in real democracy, because real democracy wouldn't have elected corrupt puppets to serve US interests. It would have most likely elected corrupt thugs who served their own interests.

quote: I note that the same arguments about democracy are again being raised by the left in their opposition to our efforts in Iraq.

Not just on the left, bucko. If you claim to think that people in the third world (whether Iraq, Vietnam, Haiti, or anyplace else) are going to naturally elect leaders who will see their country's "proper" role vis-a-vis US policy and happily go along with the program, then I know you're trolling, because you're not that dumb.

quote: All this goes to show is that the left are hypocrites on issue of human rights and basic freedoms. The left seems to be very much enamored with authoritarian governments so long as those governments go through the proper motions of denouncing corporations and capitalism.

As opposed to the right's hypocrisy of hyping illusory freedom and fraudulent democracy, while supporting whatever arrangement promotes US interests? At least in the old days, empires had the balls and the basic honesty to proclaim themselves as such.

	24-02-2004 21:24									#127
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MtG, you mostly are a very sensible person. Why do you hate the US so much?

	24-02-2004 21:26									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MtG, you mostly are a very sensible person. Why do you hate the US so much?

He's an unreconstructed Confederate.

	24-02-2004 21:30									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I also agree that the military strategy and execution was abysmal. I think the primary reason for this was that it was too much controlled by Johnson and McNamara and not by the military itself.

This is a lie. The military was in command. It may be true that Johnson picked the targets, but the list of targets was given to him by the military. With the exception of a ten mile zone south of the Chinese border, every target in Vietnam was hit. The military got what they wanted, the way they wanted it, with the exception of an invasion of North Vietnam. The only thing the politicians didn't let the military do ws start WWIII.

Ned, why do you hate the truth so much?

	24-02-2004 21:32									#130
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yes, john kerry is a commie, john kerry eats babies, john kerry commits genocide...


god, conservatives are such morons
edit: on second thought... I can't be sure ALL of them are... just many or most

	24-02-2004 21:44									#131
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This is a lie. The military was in command. It may be true that Johnson picked the targets, but the list of targets was given to him by the military. With the exception of a ten mile zone south of the Chinese border, every target in Vietnam was hit. The military got what they wanted, the way they wanted it, with the exception of an invasion of North Vietnam. The only thing the politicians didn't let the military do ws start WWIII. Ned, why do you hate the truth so much?

Well, that is not the whole story, now is it?

Besides, not invading NV was critical to the failure in Vietnam.

	24-02-2004 21:45									#132
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quote: Ned, why do you hate the truth so much?

because it doesn't fit in with his right-wing propaganda

	24-02-2004 21:57									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Besides, not invading NV was critical to the failure in Vietnam.

It was also critical to the survival of the human species.

	24-02-2004 22:17									#134
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It was also critical to the survival of the human species.

OMFG THOSE DAMNED BASTARDS JOHNSON AND MACNAMARA PREVENTED A NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST OMFG THOSE ****ING COMMIES!

	24-02-2004 22:25									#135
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc He's an unreconstructed Confederate.

As I am. This is probably why I favor Edwards over Kerry, truth be told.

It would take a lot to get me to vote for a northerner over a southerner.

	24-02-2004 22:27									#136
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick As I am. This is probably why I favor Edwards over Kerry, truth be told. It would take a lot to get me to vote for a northerner over a southerner.

you'd probably vote hitler if he was from the south over jesus christ if he were from the north....

that's sad...

you should care about POLICIES and not where someone is from...

that being said, I like Edwards better too

	24-02-2004 22:28									#137
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick It would take a lot to get me to vote for a northerner over a southerner.

WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA!?!?!

	24-02-2004 22:29									#138
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I suppose I should be pleased that my points are so unassailable that no one makes an attempt.

	24-02-2004 22:54									#139
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I suppose I should be pleased that my points are so unassailable that no one makes an attempt.

care to sum them up in a shortened form? I'm too lazy to go back and read

	24-02-2004 22:57									#140
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I suppose I should be pleased that my points are so unassailable that no one makes an attempt.

Actually, they were so dumb no one bothered.

	24-02-2004 22:59									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Ned All this goes to show is that the left are hypocrites on issue of human rights and basic freedoms.

So in order to protect human rights, democracy and basic freedoms in Vietnam, the US government had to prop up corrupt dictators who gained power through military coups and who you say committed war crimes.



This pales in comparison to hypocrisy towards Kerry.

Kerry fought bravely for his country and then tried to bring the boys back home from a useless war.

Yet you claim he is a traitor and should be shot. Why? Because Kerry said some American troops committed war crimes in Vietnam and you say that is a lie that unfairly attacks American veterans.

You then say that Kerry, a veteran, committed war crimes while serving in Vietnam.

	24-02-2004 23:01									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MtG, you mostly are a very sensible person. Why do you hate the US so much?

Nothing to do with hating the US. The US as a whole is generally distinct from the more malicious and arrogant aspects of it's foreign policy.

Oh, yes, and because I'm an unreconstructed Confederate.

	24-02-2004 23:12									#143
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quote: Oh, yes, and because I'm an unreconstructed Confederate.

we're going to liberate your ass next biyatch!

	25-02-2004 02:32									#144
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quote: MtG, you mostly are a very sensible person. Why do you hate the US so much?

Oh Ned... I bet now I'm a liberal (because I've been defending Kerry) and MtG is the next coming of bin Laden to you .

	25-02-2004 02:37									#145
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Imran, who knows the ins and outs of the Nedaverse? I doubt even Ned has a map of that dangerous place.

	25-02-2004 04:56									#146
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Imran, you can defend Kerry if you like.

BTW, where do you come out on the Vietnam war?

	25-02-2004 05:46									#147
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I think it's unfortunate. I mean, if we realized what Ho Chi Minh was after, we wouldn't have had to fight him. He was simply a nationalist and because we made him our enemy, he went to China and Russia. If we were actually backing a democracy, then it would have made some sense, but we were propping up a brutal dictatorship.

In addition to that we did some really rotten stuff in Vietnam. Not a very proud moment for the country, that is sure.

	25-02-2004 06:08									#148
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...is absolutely sure to win the transexual vote.

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