02-03-2004 01:19									#31
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I guess I missed the thread in which the Consuls asked for volunteers for the position.

Or, did you limit your announcement to only those in chat? Or, maybe it was sent by PM to a select few?

Please, let me know about the Consuls process of going about finding a new MoW for the last 2 months or so.

* BigFree is going to put a smilie at the end of every post so that it seems happy and polite.

	02-03-2004 01:31									#32
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I guess I missed the thread in which the Consuls asked for volunteers for the position. Or, did you limit your announcement to only those in chat? Or, maybe it was sent by PM to a select few? Please, let me know about the Consuls process of going about finding a new MoW for the last 2 months or so. * BigFree is going to put a smilie at the end of every post so that it seems happy and polite.

As I recall, there was a thread asking for volunteers when Trip was elevated to Consul. We PMed all of the (few) people who posted in that thread and went beyond that thread to PM others. Exceedingly few people were really interested in the position and had the time to fulfill its duties.

We also posted a thread after Aggie was appointed asking for a new Deputy MoW and that received very little response. We again PMed members of the team even though they had not posted in the thread hoping to get some people. No-one was interested.

I really don't feel like digging up those threads right now, but they are there if you wish to look for them.

Frankly, the main problem is that many of the people who might otherwise be interested in the MoW position don't want it during PEACETIME, but would take the job if we had another war.

	02-03-2004 01:41									#33
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In an attempt to get this thread back on course, a question for Togas:


Due to apparent apathy in the senate regarding the ministry of war, would you consider permanently abolishing the position and folding the responsibilities into the consulships?

	02-03-2004 04:48									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I don't believe that it should be the obligation of the consuls to have to consult the advice of the ministries to be doing a satisfactory job. The Constitution itself states that the ministers are to supply an advisory role... not that it is the role of the consuls to consult with the ministers. Don't get me wrong in thinking that I'm trying to "cut people out" of the process. I simply feel it's the obligation of those people to earn their positions of consultation with effort and initiative. Those who do shine and are the greatest assets to this team. The consuls have plenty to do already, and I feel that at least some of the responsibility should be on the ministers to handle things on their own.

I completely disagree with this. Yes, the ministers are advisors, but how can they possibly do their job if the Consuls do not seek them out and ask their advice before just doing it themselves?

I can perfectly well see where some of Togas' lack of activity stems from. He is not given information about contacts with other teams in a timely fashion. He is not consulted on responses. He has to chase after just to find out what happened in his own area of responsibility.

How can you hold someone as responsible for an area and then cut them out of the loop at the same time? The answer is you can't and remain consistent.

I don't think you try to cut people out, Trip. I feel that your habits just do it, and you don't realise that that is exactly the result you achieve.

Edit: BTW, Trip is not the only one who may have done things that cut others out. While still a Consul I was extremely frustrated that logs of communications were not posted promptly, and sometimes I couldn't figure out what in Hades was going on on some important questions.

	02-03-2004 04:52									#35
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree * BigFree is going to put a smilie at the end of every post so that it seems happy and polite.

As long as you dont begin your post with:

Hi

and end with:

Have a nice day

I guess that will annoy some persons here

Aidun

	02-03-2004 04:58									#36
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I completely disagree with this. Yes, the ministers are advisors, but how can they possibly do their job if the Consuls do not seek them out and ask their advice before just doing it themselves?

I'm with NYE on this one, actually. Why on earth do we appoint the ministers if we're not going to solicit their advice on what we're doing?

	02-03-2004 05:04									#37
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I completely disagree with this. Yes, the ministers are advisors, but how can they possibly do their job if the Consuls do not seek them out and ask their advice before just doing it themselves? I can perfectly well see where some of Togas' lack of activity stems from. He is not given information about contacts with other teams in a timely fashion. He is not consulted on responses. He has to chase after just to find out what happened in his own area of responsibility. How can you hold someone as responsible for an area and then cut them out of the loop at the same time? The answer is you can't and remain consistent. I don't think you try to cut people out, Trip. I feel that your habits just do it, and you don't realise that that is exactly the result you achieve.

As I said, I have done my best to post any messages recieved, giving thorough time for them to be looked over and for the FAM to draft a response. I have posted all information regarding chat times and contact information I have recieved. The FAM could have either posted proposed responses and showed up to chats or they might not. In my experience, the latter is what has occurred.

For example: If I, as MOW, had not taken the initiative to post orders every turn, and had been unable to stay in chat all the time, especially when the turn arrives (as is the case for 80% of this team), then the MOW role would have been completely obsolete. Doing what I did made the job incredibly easy for the consuls... all they had to do was review the very detailed orders I gave every turn and either approve them and go ahead with them, or come up with an alternative. Had I not been as active as I was, only responding to consular inquiries, then all of the unit moves would have had to have been reviewed and debated by the consuls every turn. This is essentially how the FAM has been. Do you really think it would be the responsibility of the consuls to have to consult me on every military issue which arose every turn? Or was it mine?

	02-03-2004 05:09									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I'm with NYE on this one, actually. Why on earth do we appoint the ministers if we're not going to solicit their advice on what we're doing?

As I brought forward in my response to NYE, what about my previous role as MOW?

After I left the ministry, it was "expected" of Aggie to have posted orders as I did, and showing up to chat to advise the consuls on what was going on. It was not expected that the new consuls go to him on every detail that needed to be worked out. NYE wanted to have Aggie present in chat for each turn, as I had been as MOW. But often he could not show up, and as time went on the consuls did things more and more independently. Is it the fault of the consuls that things happened this way?

What has been the result? Aggie has been inactive, the consuls have taken de facto control over the unit moves every turn. The same has been the case with the FAM.

	02-03-2004 05:15									#39
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Question posted in Trip's thread so that Togas can focus on questions asked of him in this thread.

	02-03-2004 05:58									#40
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Both Trip and nye raise some interesting points.

First of all, I have always been rather displeased at the Constitution's wording of the role of Ministers. It truly understates their importance since an "advisory role" can mean such different things. For example, we could have a MoI that "advises" on where to build new cities... on the other hand we could have a MoI that "advises" on every single worker move/workforce change/city build. And I can assure you that E_T's role has been far more than just "advising" us, same with Trip during his stint at the MoW, and same with Togas and myself when we led FAM.

On the other hand, and here is where Trip's point correct is that if the ministers don't do their job, you can't blame the consuls for having to take their responsiblities. And while Trip blames the minister for his lack of initiative, and nye blames the consul for not delegating, the truth of the matter is that blame rests on BOTH since failure to achieve harmony takes two.

-MZ

	02-03-2004 06:48									#41
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Due to apparent apathy in the senate regarding the ministry of war, would you consider permanently abolishing the position and folding the responsibilities into the consulships?

I far prefer to see the job done by someone other than the Consuls. The task is such that it really needs someone who can focus solely on it. If it continues to be handled by "the Consuls" in general, it will be passed from one individual to the next, or haphazardly done in chats, and it'll lack the central planning and coordination needed for a proper job.

Perhaps what we should start with is just something as simple as posting a thread and asking for volunteers. That hasn't been done yet. I'm somewhat surprised that it hasn't. If that doesn't do the job, and if I do win this election, I would have no problem with begging Trip to reassume that role. I have a great deal of respect for his military capabilities.

--Togas

	02-03-2004 07:50									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen On the other hand, and here is where Trip's point correct is that if the ministers don't do their job, you can't blame the consuls for having to take their responsiblities. And while Trip blames the minister for his lack of initiative, and nye blames the consul for not delegating, the truth of the matter is that blame rests on BOTH since failure to achieve harmony takes two.

To be honest, I agree completely with this conclusion. The entire mechanism is working most efficiently with the consuls delegating some of the work to the FAM and the FAM taking some of the initiative to handle things.

The problem with trying to purue this, at least lately, has been the fact that there are quite a few other parts of the team which could also be a little more active (e.g. MOW), and that means the consuls have to pick up a little bit of each ministry, which saps time. More time spent on figuring out military moves = less time to figure out what information and tasks should be transferred to the FAM.

	02-03-2004 08:48									#43
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OK guys threadjack time is over, this is Togas's campaign thread.

Ill be voting for him, if he answers this question well enough.

After all Napolean lost when it was all said and done

Togas what is the most important thing a council can do for this team?

	02-03-2004 10:41									#44
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Togas what is the most important thing a council can do for this team?

Damnit, I have two answers that are equally important and I have to pick just one?!

If I have to pick just one, it would be to guide/lead the team with regards to what topics, debates, and issues need discussion.

In short, to be a good leader.

To get people involved, get discussion going, draw out ideas, and push to focus on necessary debates and planning.

If I had TWO things that a consul could do, I'd say that he should effectively communicate information and issues to the team.

If I had THREE (or more) things, I'd mention having time to do a proper job, being accountable and responsible with your behavior, and being able to work well with others.

--Togas

	02-03-2004 11:57									#45
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And if I had four wishes to give this holiday season: the first would be the crap about the kids, the second would be for the $30 million, the third for all the power, the fourth would be to set aside one month, each year, to have an extended 31 day orgasm, to be brought slowly by Rosanna Arquette or that model, Paulina -somebody - I can't think of her her name. Of course my lovely wife can come too, she's behind me 100% on this I guarantee.


copyright Steve Martin monologue in SNL

	07-03-2004 03:35									#46
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I am officially withdrawing from the election

I have given this matter a lot of thought, and have not made this decision hastily. The following considerations have weighed heavily on this decision:

1) C3C ISDG Demogame is about to start and I hold a Consul postion in that game.

2) I hold key leadership positions in the PTWDG, PTWDGII, MZO ISDG, C3C ISDG and (obviously) this team. All of those games are active and my participation in all of them has caused me to split my time, perhaps too much.

3) I have just added two new ambassadors and have not yet had a full opportunity to train and involve them. This is not a good time for me to leave my ministry.

4) We really don't need to add another person to the Consolate team, what we need right now are more active ministers and deputies. Apolyton's primary need it to get more active people, not less. My time and attention would be better served actively working FAM than helping MZ and Arnelos do turnchats.

Before making this decision I had a chat with Trip. We came to an understanding. I'm going to put my full effort into diplomacy and getting my ministry back to full capacity. He's going to do his best to stay out of the way. I'm going to have similar chats with Arnelos and MZ. I intend to get my ministry back into a full-time communications role and allow the Consuls to focus on internal matters.

The issues and complaints I brought up doing my campaign are valid and I will continue to work to see that changes are made. However, I will do this work from my role as Minister of Foreign Affairs, and I will not attempt to surplant Trip as Consul ... at least not in this election.

Thank you to those who supported me and who encouraged me to run. I apologize for not making this decision sooner.

--Togas

	07-03-2004 11:20									#47
	Increase Your PM Length

Shoot.....

* E_T thinks quickly....

VOTE for the Banana in this next Election!!!!

E_T

	07-03-2004 12:27									#48
	Increase Your PM Length

Like, totally bogus dude.

	07-03-2004 13:29									#49
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A deep pocketbook can accomplish anything...

	07-03-2004 14:20									#50
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Hey, no matter how this election went, I was really happy to see an ACTUAL ELECTION between to active members where there was a true campaign. Since the end of the CGA war (which was really when they left the continent) this has been my favorite part. Bedate rocks no matter what side you are on.

to all involved!

	07-03-2004 18:00									#51
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*con is disappointed for the second month in a row there wont really be an election*

I wonder how the "Hungry Men" are forcing a lack of opponents, Hmmmmmmmmmmm

	07-03-2004 18:06									#52
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Con, If you find out how, you know where to find the press, right?

Aidun

	07-03-2004 20:42									#53
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bummer, but far better to withdraw now than to win and not be able to devote the necessary attention.

	07-03-2004 21:49									#54
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In all seriousness, to Togas. It takes a big man to step down when he feels he can be of more use to the team elsewhere.

	07-03-2004 23:40									#55
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 I wonder how the "Hungry Men" are forcing a lack of opponents, Hmmmmmmmmmmm

We have ways of making you withdraw

I am sorry to see Togas withdraw, he would have made an excellent Consul and this would have been without a doubt one of the best elections so far this game. Hopefully he will find time in the future to run again

-MZ

	11-03-2004 05:00									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Togas 1) C3C ISDG Demogame is about to start and I hold a Consul postion in that game.

There's a Civ3 DG that I'm not signed up for?

Not that I'm active much in any of them anymore, but I like to keep up with what's going on. Someone have a link for this?

	11-03-2004 05:13									#57
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Click on the "Civ3-Democracy Game" link at the top of this page. (In the directory)

In this forum, you will find the sign up thread, and also the "join" button in the top right corner

	11-03-2004 06:46									#58
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by dejon There's a Civ3 DG that I'm not signed up for? Not that I'm active much in any of them anymore, but I like to keep up with what's going on. Someone have a link for this?

The ISDG link you have is no longer valid. The UN has moved to here:
http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/c...forum.php?f=428

	11-03-2004 07:19									#59
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Thanks H_E, BF!

	11-03-2004 07:31									#60
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by dejon There's a Civ3 DG that I'm not signed up for? Not that I'm active much in any of them anymore, but I like to keep up with what's going on. Someone have a link for this?

Send Donegal a PM and let him know you want in, he is pretty reliable and around a lot, you will be in within a day or two.