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jtsisyoda
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COO, Morgan Industries, ACDG3
Jul 2003
time: 00:34
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I would've piped in sooner, but all that reading and thinking would've taken time out of assembling machinery, driving the former truck, etc. So here are my thoughts before getting back to work...
CPU says it was justified in starting a war. Whether others agree with those justifications or not, this is no longer about war. It's not about preventing PEACE from strangling trade and sea lanes, piloting under the influence, blah, blah. This is now about eradication, and I don't like it.
Leave PEACE alone. 
Edit: Unscientific entrance polls now indicate the vote is leaning 3-2 in favor of the resolution entered by the Hive.
Last edited by jtsisyoda on 03-03-2004 at 12:40
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foolish_icarus
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the thievery continues
Nov 2002
time: 21:34
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I would like to bring up a few further things for the council to consider.
Firstly, Cycon claims that their actions were beneficial to PEACE citizens are false. This has been a humanitarian disaster, in which thousands of soldiers have died and thousands of civilians have been displaced and tens of thousands have suffered shortages and declines in standards of living. There is no way they can truthfully say that they have bettered the living conditions of PEACE bases, which would not justify their actions even if it were true. The simple fact is, PEACE devoted almost all of its efforts to colonization and infrastructure efforts, increasing the well being of our citizens. Many of those facilities have been destroyed and our remaining bases have had to switch production to war industries. Furthermore, the Cycon’s irresponsible warmongering has deprived their own citizens of standards they might have possessed had they been pursuing peaceful endeavors. The citizens of both factions would have been much better off had this war not happened.
Cycon claims that PEACE citizens are allowed to participate democratically are patently false. If our citizens truly did have a significant say, they would not be in the Cycon at all and certainly would not be aiding or permitting the continuing Cycon execution of war against their brethren. Instead, they are assimilated or forced by other means to fulfill the orders of the Cycon government, an elite group with no regard for the well being of PEACE citizens and questionable interest in the welfare of their own citizens.
Secondly, the Cycon are in contravention of Planetary Law. What was the first thing that happened in this war? They broke a treaty. An agreement they entered into voluntarily and with no reservations. This treaty, as with all treaties fairly entered into, came with a mutual expectation of resolving disputes non-militarily. There is no other way to interpret a treaty, than as, at its most fundamental level, an agreement for the parties involved not to attack each other. When the Cycon attacked us they betrayed our faction and the principles of international law.
The Cycon were in no way forced either into the treaty or out of it. The PEACE faction never failed to deliver on a deal. Cycon reneged on a trade agreement and stole a tech from us as soon as they felt they could get away with it. To the best of my knowledge, we never lied to Cycon. We fought for the best deals. We tried to milk the most out of any transaction. As Did Everyone Else. We never used force in any interaction with Cycon. Cycon came out better off than they were before after every deal they transacted with us. They could have survived fine without us, therefore all interactions between our factions were positive and they could have ceased dealing with us at any time. They had no legitimate cause to break treaty. They were the first to renege on a deal and the first to use force.
The Cycon did not seek diplomatic solutions. They were displeased and simply attacked, not even deigning to send a declaration of war until after the sneak attack had started, much less actually discussing things peacefully, as should have been done. Instead they resorted to military force immediately, without provocation or even an attempt at resolving the perceived conflict.
If this is the standard the Council wishes to promote, one of disregard for agreements, treachery, and rampant unprovoked use of violent force, then do nothing. If you value rule of law or civilized international relations, then this council must demand that Cycon return the bases they have captured and sign a binding peace treaty.
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FlameFlash
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Minnesota, USA
Dec 2001
time: 23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
while we have made you an honest and still open offer to unify with us and become an equal partner in a Consciousness-PEACE-University Union. |
Yes, but your peoples will no doubt be ‘more equal’. 
quote:
There is no charter that the CPU has agreed to that forbids the use of aggression, especially as a last resort. |
And when did it become a last resort? If I recall, CyCon broke agreements with PEACE, often and reliably and as we continued to request payment we found it more and more difficult to do so until we were hit hard and fast, no doubt through infiltration information gained from our peacefully intentioned pact. If that is not aggression in its purest, basest form I wish to know what is.
quote:
Depends what you consider aggression. We explained, before the war, the actions PEACE had taken that led to our decision to engage in war. We used military force first, that is true, but we felt aggrieved at the actions of PEACE. |
Heh, because payment was being demanded upon debts owed to us from CyCon and CyCon’s refusal to follow through with past agreements.
quote:
quote:
Innocent civilians always suffer during war and under occupation. |
Source? Evidence? |
 I see that now, when somebody else uses logic, it fails you, seemingly.
What else is there during war but destruction, death, and loss of life? After the wars are done and lives have been destroyed histories are rewritten so that the ‘victor’ appears righteous. We are attempting to make sure that the records within the Planetary Council are filled with truth: PEACE was attacked merely because CyCon could not pay its debt to PEACE and rather than asking for a way out of said debt decided to attempt to remove the bank from the face of the planet.
quote:
Not at all. The ending of the Pact was due to the insults and accusations of PEACE, as well as their attempts to use underhand tactics to gain more from our trading deals, as explained before. |
More from your trading deals?  And how does paying one’s debt ever become underhanded? 
quote:
We will happily enter negotiations with PEACE, but our advances as such have been refused. |
Your offers of ‘negotiations’ have been nothing but offers of assimilation and I and my parrot laugh at ye for attempting to say that they were otherwise.
quote:
I would disagree that there is a crisis. As my post says, there is no humanitarian disaster, and the people are not being constrained, prejudiced against, or in any way discriminated against. They are CPU citizens/ |
The cities and the citizens of PEACE that have been taken by CyCon are and will always be PEACE citizens. The fact that they are now forced to be part of CyCon seems not to matter to you at all.
quote:
PEACE government does not wish to be part of CPU. PEACE citizens have not spoken. We wished, and still wish, to start negotiations with PEACE. They have refused to negotiate with us. |
Because CyCons have made it clear that all they are interested in is assimilating PEACE any way possible. That is not negotiation, that is assimilation.
quote:
Surely it is logical. If you insult us, continually try to play us against other factions and keep a strangle hold around us with regards to trade, we would find a way out. Our people were poor because of PEACE actions, in their trading arrangements. We needed to do something, and the only option we were left with is war. |
It is our role, as PEACE, to be leaders in trade on the high seas, yet did we initiate anything against CyCon for entering the high seas themselves? I think not. We simply wished to keep the technology that allowed for travel on the high seas our own until such a time as we saw it would be beneficial to no longer have it as such, just as we did. What is wrong with that at all? How is that unfair or in any way ‘strangling’ another faction? Especially one in which we had so close of trade relations with until you broke as many trade agreements as you did.
We, of PEACE, did nothing wrong, unless that wrong thing was following our own nature. We have never attempted to dictate that replacing cybernetic parts within yourselves was an abomination, so why treat our need to roam the seas alone as long as possible as such?
quote:
IMHO a negotiation is where one faction makes a proposal, and the other comes back with their own, and a debate ensues. We wished to start a debate, to start negotiations. However you have provided no proposal, have not called us to ceasefire or for any form of treaty. |
Because the only option we have been given, and given repeatedly, is to join CPU willfully or by force.
I beleive I can speak for all my fellow captains when I say that a wish for a cease-fire and return of bases occur, and at the very least a cease-fire while the terms of the base-returning process be instigated.
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Voltaire
If we could have the factions officially submit their votes in at this time; the Human Hive being the mover of this motion votes in the affirmative. |
Mani Alpha-3, democratically chosen Prime Function of the Consciousness region, votes NAY.
Archaic, democratically chosen Chancellor of the PUT region, votes NAY.
Geo Beta-2, democratically chosen Admiral Function of the PEACE region, votes NAY.
quote:
Er....The Believers and the Angels abstain, of course |
Seeing the Hive has brutally declared war on the Angels, I doubt they would abstain on this issue. Likewise for their pactmates the Believers.
In other words: 1 vote YEA, 5 votes NAY.
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
Mani Alpha-3, democratically chosen Prime Function of the Consciousness region, votes NAY.
Archaic, democratically chosen Chancellor of the PUT region, votes NAY.
Geo Beta-2, democratically chosen Admiral Function of the PEACE region, votes NAY.
Seeing the Hive has brutally declared war on the Angels, I doubt they would abstain on this issue. Likewise for their pactmates the Believers.
In other words: 1 vote YEA, 5 votes NAY. |
I thought it was 1 faction 1 vote in a council. Not 1 vote per assimulated region.
So technically the CPU gets 1 vote, unless they want to rennounce their whole unified thingy....
I'm not sure if you're able to cast the votes for the AI, I thought either Googile or Tassadar would handle AI votes.
I kindof found it funny that Maniac is able to cast Archiac's vote for him. Did Archiac decide to unify the University with the Cycon before or after being assimulated?
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Comrade Tassadar
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It is the right of the Consciousness to not recognize the current PEACE government, however it is the opinion of me that both Hercules is the legitimate ruler of PEACE and that the majority of factions recognize this defacto. The leaders of PEACE before were Hercules, and they are currently Hercules.
Plus, again: The territories conquered are not an independant political entity.
In old Earth, the United States did not get 50 votes on the council simply because it had 50 states.
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Comrade Tassadar
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Such is my ruling. All factions are free to recognize or refuse to recognize it though in the opinion of your god, if there is not unaniminity in either recognizing or not recongizing this ruling then the council will become as a farce.
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:34
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Hrmm before I thought it was the Hive that sounded desperate when they made this thread. Now I've decided that these latest posts sound more desperate.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
It is the right of the Consciousness to not recognize the current PEACE government, however it is the opinion of me that both Hercules is the legitimate ruler of PEACE and that the majority of factions recognize this defacto. The leaders of PEACE before were Hercules, and they are currently Hercules.
Plus, again: The territories conquered are not an independant political entity.
In old Earth, the United States did not get 50 votes on the council simply because it had 50 states. |
The two "Old Earth" precedents that jump to mind most quickly in this regard would be the Republic of China in the 1940s through the early 1970s and Afghanistan in the 1990s through 2001. In both of these cases (along with any number of others, actually), the deposed government of a state or government of a conquered state retained its official representative position, council voting rights, and even internationally recognized sovereignty over territory until such time as the council could vote to recognize a change of sovereignty from the previous government to a new one. In the case of the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China, this process took decades and the situation here (with PEACE) where the government of a state has fled to an island nearly precisely mirrors that situation.
The situation of Afghanistan is also illustrative. For nearly a decade, the internationally recognized government controlled at most about 10% of the actual territory it was internationally recognized to have sovereignty over, while the governing body which had de facto control over the other 90% of the territory had no international recognition because no vote by the council took place and passed to recognize it. The situation resolved itself when the lost territory was reclaimed by elements loyal or allied to the original government. In terms of international law, however, the sovereign government of Afghanistan never changed.
There are numerous other examples from "Old Earth" history of this council's predecessor organization, the "United Nations" only accepting a change of sovereignty through a vote of the council membership.
Since this colony and indeed this very council was founded with the use of the Charter of that very organization, these precedents are more than simply relevant, they reflect the operating rules of this council.
If CyCon is proposing that the sovereignty of PEACE be transferred from the currently recognized government to a new government, such a proposal will need to pass a vote of this council before it becomes official. Until that time, the original government of PEACE will retain its council membership, its voting rights, and international recognition of its sovereign rights over its territory.
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:34
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quote:
Originally posted by laurentius
I'd like to point out that without Hives approval the whole war between PEACE and CyCon would never have started at all. It was with Hives support that we decided to go to war. And the Hive was never neutral in any way about this, nono. They PROVIDED US with infiltration information of PEACE for example. So they KNEW and APPROVED the current situation beforehand. Now the winds have turned I see, well all I can say is HIVE BETRAYS ONCE AGAIN. They dont seem very trustworthy. As a victim of this backstabbing I warn any ally of Hive to be very careful with them, because you could be the next they decieve.
kassad omicron-9, second function of CPU |
Firstly you already had the army ready to go before you were given the peace base information.
Secondly, I take responsibility for giving the CyCon the Peace information. I liked the CyCon back then and believed that the CyCon were cheated by the Peace at the time. I no longer hold those views and apologise to the Peace for my actions.
The CyCon were questioning why we were holding back on trading with them. The issue of permi-pact with the CyCon was being discussed and the prerogative was to stay in good relations with the CyCon. At the time the CyCon didn't have anything we wanted, so I requested permission to give them some freebies. After I got authorisation I gave them a couple of things for free and one of the things they got for free was infiltration information on the Peace.
It was only after I left that I realised my serious mistake, but since I was already officially out of the Hive it was too late to made reparations to the Peace.
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Illuminatus
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Salvaging Unity Fusion Core
Jul 2003
time: 06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by foolish_icarus
Duh. To get money because we did our best to save ourselves in the war YOU STARTED. |
So you destroyed schools, factories, banks, hospitals just to get money for weapons? Well the you choose to sacrifice your own civilians causing a humanitarian disaster. You would rather watch them suffer and die instead of giving up when the course of battle was decided to minimalise civilian casualties. But now, you didn`t think on them then. 
quote:
I was and I have reviewed the records. On one occasion we refrained from volunteering information. I apologize profusely and withdraw all my statements as this clearly validates everything Cycon has done, since it’s obvious we were obligated to do Cycon’s research for them and you were perfect and we were bad and OH THE HUMANITY!  |
Maybe we should make records of PEACE communication public. Then you would see what is this war about - when being fed up with ultimatums and extortions (pardon it is what you claim "sweetening the deal") and even preparing to take technology with probes if we declined.
quote:
Your infiltration data showed we were going to infiltrate you so you had to attack us??? Classic.
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Classic it is, but it is true. You have proven not to be trusted and showed your intentions of taking what you want. Attack was our only resort since you ignored diplomatic channels.
quote:
And I’d like to point out that the whole war between PEACE and CyCon would never have started at all had not Cycon, oh, SNEAK ATTACKED US WITH THE INTENTION OF OBLITERATING US TO THE LAST BASE! The thing that gets my goat the most about Cycon is your utter arrogance. You have the gall to accuse the Hive of betrayal? |
Yes, we should accuse you of betrayal and pretending friendship while claiming that you are simply pursuing good deals. Hive has seen that too, and given us a green light to go for it, seeing that you are best eliminated or crippled.
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03-03-2004 11:27
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