02-03-2004 00:20									#31
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Great replies Drogue.

Btw, since they're so going on about the UN Charter forbidding war, how about using their arguments against them and initiating a Planetary Council Motion demanding an exhange of all technology between all factions? From the AI diplomacy blurbs we know free flow of all tech information is part of the UN Charter.

Also we might want to add somewhere that from the infiltration information the Hive gave us, we knew that PEACE was about to infiltrate our datalinks, and that this war started as a defence against this PEACE agression. So we're not the aggressors then. You could also refer to HongHu's last message in the Hive dip exchanges thread where she states "After much discussion we have decided to trust you one more time and to let the probe ship live." This means that the Hive sees an attempt to infiltrate datalinks as a valid reason to start a war.

Also how about adding this:

quote: I am merely questioning why now? Why are the Hive, a faction that has helped us in the war, providing us with infiltration information on PEACE and even offering us credits to help our war effort, now saying that they disagree with it. You were informed of the war many years before we actually declared it. I went too far, in the eyes of many of my faction, in telling your Ambassador about our plans for war long before they were made public, including when it was brought forward two years. At the time, the Hive voiced no concerns whatsoever about our actions, and indeed accepted our explanation for those events. Why have you suddenly changed. I will reiterate. You have changed because since our unification with PUT we have become stronger, and you are trying to find an excuse to weaken us. Other cyborgs even think that you are only out for planetary domination. And that to reach that goal, you claimed to be our friends and helped us, so we would attack PEACE. As a result two of your rival factions would lose resources while the Hive kept growing stronger and stronger. You underestimated the capabilities of the External Affairs Functionality though. Instead of a stalemate war which would weaken two opponents, the war went quicker and more profitable for us than you expected. The Consciousness grew more potent, becoming a threat to Hiveans schemes for world domination. Therefore, and only therefore, you have decided to come to the assistance of the Pirates you betrayed repeatedly only ten years ago. So I would again ask the Hive to stop playing politics with the issues of former PEACE citizens. To the PEACE citizens, I would ask you to realize that the Hive is only using you for their own advantage, while we have made you an honest and still open offer to unify with us and become an equal partner in a Consciousness-PEACE-University Union.

	02-03-2004 01:17									#32
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Have posted already, but will include some of those arguments later. actually, will edit to include the credits thing. The last part though, i would like to leave out for now. If it comes to it, use it, but that will antagonise them to war, IMHO. I have included a summary, since I wanted to reiterate our main points, and have touched on that, but until drawn, or until necessary, I'd like to not accuse them. We don't want them starting a war until we're ready.

Have also replied to Herc, who accused us of genocide Yep, like we've killed every single PEACE citizen

	02-03-2004 01:32									#33
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quote: The last part though, i would like to leave out for now. If it comes to it, use it, but that will antagonise them to war, IMHO.

If the Hive is demanding something as ridiculous and harmful to our vital interests as a return of all assimilated bases to PEACE, it's IMO a clear sign they have already decided to go to war with us, and nothing we say can still change that.

	02-03-2004 01:37									#34
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Wow...

You didn't tell me diplomatic exchanges here were so different, WIA.

Course, there was a certain simplicity to being a 'diplomat' for the GoW team...

	02-03-2004 01:53									#35
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UnOrthOdOx: It wasn't always as such. Well, it was always complicated, but they haven't done anything like this for a while. Have a look at at VoyForums for an idea. The password is voltogue.

	02-03-2004 02:15									#36
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Drogue,

I am comming from the CivIII PTW demogame where I was on a team dedicated to the power of warfare. We were the 'evil' team from the start of the game, and I personally played that up to it's fullest.

My "diplomacy" was somewhat aggressive in nature, I suppose you could say.

Teams would make similar posts publicly, I would reply by calling it all a bunch of hypocracy and swearing a quest to remove them from the game.

	02-03-2004 03:24									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I think that's it. Can I post these? A little overkill maybe, but hey, we are in the right, and if they want to agrue, they'd better damn well be prepared to substanciate it

And I suppose you better edit this as well ASAP. Doesn't really fit in this debate

Btw, about HongHu's recent reply.

She counters with the statement that Planetary Council exists from Planetfall, even if they do not gather in the early years. I suggest countering this again with their approval for this war and no atrocities committed.
(Thank 'Tass&Googlie' that no bases were destroyed when taking them over)

Also, why not including another, but this time very specific call to PEACE itself for peace talks?
What I mean is something like:

"CPU feels the damage done to (former) CyCon faction are retibruted for, therefore and in case that PEACE faction may learn a lesson from this, an end of hostilities is proposed. In no case does PEACE have to expect a giving back of bases, these were taken for the above mentioned retributions to individual cyborgs suffering from..." well, you guys now better then I from what those individuals were suffering. And I suggest to brush it up a bit as well, I'm not that proficient in english.

	02-03-2004 03:29									#38
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Ahhh We would do that, but the Hive are powerful. And besides, we have them wrapped round our legal fingers. We are in the right, legally. They're just trying to gain people's support to attack us. We want to remove that support. Preferable get the Drones to remain neutral. Either way, we must finish our current war first.

	02-03-2004 03:34									#39
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Ok, I take it then that our military progresses as planned, although it might be a good (diplomatic) move to delay the conquest of Atlantis for one turn, but hunt down all PEACE vessels we can find around that island were the cutter is.

We can use that to show that we're restraining ourself, but that only works as long we're sure that no Hive vessel is close enough to 'protect' that base.

	02-03-2004 05:27									#40
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After reading posts from council about the cease fire CPU-PEACE, i think that for the CPU image it would be good to stop the war, after maybe taking the bases most strategic for the new border in that region. There would have to be some conditions for the PEACE though, like:

1) Non-aggression pact for at least 20 years.
2) Resignation from any claims for conquered bases so far.

In correspondence with PEACE i would recognize their firm standing in face of total destruction. For that only reason (it is my feeling) i would stop the war. We should keep the proposition of the CPU-PEACE Union open after the cease fire. They might have second thoughts. If they cooperate with HIVE and DRONES, that will be bad for us. On the other hand stopping the war will send the message to the Planet that CPU values honor. If PEACE will be able to appreciate this then we win, and PEACE might finally cooperate with us.

I would not make public the information that HIVE provided us with infiltration info and credits for the war against PEACE. This will surely hit Hive strong, but i think it is enough if PEACE knows it from us.

just some thoughts...

	02-03-2004 06:30									#41
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Are you guys serious about not assimilating Atlantis? I thought it was obvious to everyone that neither the Hive or PEACE expects us to give any reparations to PEACE, but that they're just finding a silly casus belli to attack us, and thus that nothing we say will ultimately make a difference. This is also why instead of replying to our strong arguments and clear signs that we have no aggressive intentions towards them, they keep repeating the same old song and claim that we are a danger for Planet stability.
Therefore I'd say we just continue according to plan and assimilate Atlantis and sink as many PEACE vessels as possible, while steering clear of both the remaining Hive & PEACE ships to prevent a succesful counterattack.

	02-03-2004 06:47									#42
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The only reason why I propose to delay the assimilation of Atlantis is that it doesn't matter if it is now or in 2159. PEACE has no ec to quick build extra defenses, and even if that is provided by Hive, it can't resist an attack from Mammoth Task Force.
But it might look good on diplo level that we showed some restraint, and at the sound of Herc responses, no deal can be reached with PEACE anyway.

	02-03-2004 11:41									#43
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Just a point for use again HongHu - the Planetary Council, in-game, does not exist until all surviving factions have met one another, for obvious reasons. Even if one takes it to 'exist' in the sense that one is supposed to be set up, it could not be set up until all factions had met, and thus did not exist until then.

As for Voltaire's point about accepting the UN Charter by being Council members - as there is no way to stop being part of the Council, this should be dismissed.

Finally, as to Voltaire's copious citing of the UN Charter, we might want to point out the complete absence of the countless agencies it provides for, and also play around a bit with the Universal Delcaration of Human Rights, which at numerous points prohibits such acts as nerve stapling.

EDIT: Links:

Charter of the United Nations: http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/

Universal Declaration of Human Rights :http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

	02-03-2004 12:01									#44
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder And I suppose you better edit this as well ASAP. Doesn't really fit in this debate

I was just about to say this! It DOES work though. It shows we aren't even worried.

UnO - this is all brand new since you arrived. The mix of RP for all factions and in-game diplomacy is making it so. I think GoW only BECAME the evil ones rather than set out to be so - is this true?

I think we are going great guns, and must keep up our offensive, and our defense (diplomatically). Furthermore, perhaps we should counterattack the Hive with wild accusations as they are doing, the likes of which have already been mentioned here. There is no reason to stop the war either, until there is no war left.

Something else for the next responses: we have seen posts by the few PEACE members who have either fled or are Hive sympathisers themselves - there has been no flood of refugees, and with the exception of these one or two PEACE dissenters who have posted, all of the PEACE citizenry is living comfortably and equally in CPU bases and are so disgusted at the accusations against their government that they do not wish to respond. How else can they explain a flood of refugees unhappy with their new lives being whittled down to 2 or 3? Instead the PEACE citizens in the CPU trust their chosen representatives in the CPU government (which we should add is NOT CyCon, but an efficient Union of what was three factions, united for the benefit of all its members) to defend against these unjust attacks.

Again, softly softly. We can run rings around them like this, and they are continuing to come up with the same arguments already. Keep calling for negotiations to be opened if the parties want to, and we have the biggest trump card of them all - the Hive criticises but will not commit itself diplomatically to resolving this situation, and is providing only hollow words supposedly on behalf of PEACE, a faction for which they claim to sympathise, but in reality they are using as merely an excuse to offend CPU for no good end.

	02-03-2004 18:00									#45
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Can I post this?

HongHu:

quote: Secondly, you are absolutely right that the Hive is not speaking for the PEACE entirely from an altruistic point of view; rather, the Hive is standing up for the sake of itself. What we witness in this planet council meeting is exactly what we feared. We realize that one day, what is happening to PEACE might also happen to the Hive. We do not wish to see such a scenario, that is after the majority of our bases were taken by military force, we were offered “options” that we can either “voluntarily” give up all of our bases and become member of CPU, or face the total elimination from the planet. The people of the Hive value their independence. We would not want to be forced into the “open arms” of anybody. Yes the trigger of the motion has everything to do with the establishment of CPU as well as the real prospect that a faction is about to be eliminated. We may not fear a strong faction. But it is to the benefit of the entire planet that a strong and aggressive faction needs to be checked.

If your safety is your true concern, then the solution is very simple: a demilitarized zone and a recognition of each other's spheres of influence.
I propose the following:
(32.46), (34.40), (36.38), (42.38), (43.37) and the two islands between those coordinates become a demilitarized zone.
Everything northwest of that is Hive territory, and everything southeast of that is CPU territory.
Any unit of any faction which trespasses the DMZ or enters the territory of the other faction, is considered in violation of the treaty and may be destroyed.

Surely if your interest is peace and stability on Planet, you will see the rationality of such an agreement.

	02-03-2004 20:27									#46
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I've seen you posted it, and I endorse it. I do need to check that I don't put our ships just on that DMZ line for perfect fire solutions on the PEACE vessels.

Anyway, at least something substantial comes into this debate that way. Perhaps a poll about our members feeling (especially the recent ones) on if they want PEACE to survive or not is handy.
That can be used to quietly back down a bit (let PEACE survive, I mean). But I don't want to give bases back to PEACE. Perhaps something can be posted to PEACE that, in case enough of our members agrees to let PEACE survive, they may live when they send a truce proposal in their turn. That way we can take Atlantis and destroy most of their remaining fleet.

	02-03-2004 20:55									#47
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well i am against letting PEACE survive with more then 2 bases. and a treaty that they will not grow back bigger then 5 bases... but we need to start a real debate i concur. Someone needs to push the HIVE to start REAL talks about a cease fire instead of demanding things...and i agree with what maniac posted but maybe we need to do that in another thread

	02-03-2004 20:58									#48
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If all goes as I like, they have only that base on Yard... Long island left and virtually no fleet

Edit:

Btw, the Hive is accusing us of warmongering, atrocities and so, but how about their war against the Angels?

Don't they break the sovereignity of another state that way as well? It doesn't matter that it is an AI ruling there, it is a sovereign state!

Last edited by GeoModder on 02-03-2004 at 22:18

	03-03-2004 01:27									#49
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Just a point for use again HongHu - the Planetary Council, in-game, does not exist until all surviving factions have met one another, for obvious reasons. Even if one takes it to 'exist' in the sense that one is supposed to be set up, it could not be set up until all factions had met, and thus did not exist until then. As for Voltaire's point about accepting the UN Charter by being Council members - as there is no way to stop being part of the Council, this should be dismissed.

Good points

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Finally, as to Voltaire's copious citing of the UN Charter, we might want to point out the complete absence of the countless agencies it provides for, and also play around a bit with the Universal Delcaration of Human Rights, which at numerous points prohibits such acts as nerve stapling.

We could try that, but no-one has nervestapled. I'm more inclined just to say that we haven't agreed to the UN Charter, and it does not bind us. is that true?

	03-03-2004 02:00									#50
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder If all goes as I like, they have only that base on Yard... Long island left and virtually no fleet Edit: Btw, the Hive is accusing us of warmongering, atrocities and so, but how about their war against the Angels? Don't they break the sovereignity of another state that way as well? It doesn't matter that it is an AI ruling there, it is a sovereign state!

Good point Geo.

Just wanted to say - excellent replies Drogue
You are THE EAF.

	03-03-2004 02:19									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue We could try that, but no-one has nervestapled. I'm more inclined just to say that we haven't agreed to the UN Charter, and it does not bind us. is that true?

That's dangerous, other factions can use that our 'not agreed to UN charter' to start another tossle about how we don't allow our citizens basic UN (read, human) rights. Or even a planetwide call (to Buster) for bringing CPU-citizens the delight of an UN-charter (attacking us).

I think that, since we came upon Unity, that we are bound by the UN charter as exists in the game, nothing more, nothing less. Besides, as mentioned in my earlier post, there's still the possibility to tell them to look in their own pocket, since they're at war with the Angels. I suggest starting to response with this when the CyCon pressend.sav is available on the main forum.

	03-03-2004 03:57									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Good points We could try that, but no-one has nervestapled. I'm more inclined just to say that we haven't agreed to the UN Charter, and it does not bind us. is that true?

OTOH, they have spoken in favour of the use of nerve-stapling, which, even if it doesn't mean they've convicted themselves, does leave them hypocrites.

	03-03-2004 04:52									#53
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Well, the latest post of Voltaire sounds like they're reached the end of their speech. I guess it's now time to post how they're doing the same what they accuse us of (in their war with the Angels). Perhaps a suggestion if they want to stand before the council as well...

	03-03-2004 10:21									#54
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EDIT: Ignore this, please.

	03-03-2004 10:52									#55
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BS brings out the sarcasm in me. Apologies if it doesn't help us much, but at this point it looks as though they have already made their decision.

	03-03-2004 16:35									#56
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Skanky - I know what you mean, but at the same time there is some delight to be had in dncing arund them with words and watching THEM get all petulant. Just try and think of this.

OK, we have to make a note of the fact that now the Hive is DEMANDING something, which is not in their power to do. We have informal agreements from members of PEACE (whose status is not known) and unoffical agreement from the leader of the Drones. We should ask the Hive to follow due protocol if they are intending to follow legal protocols as they seem to be wanting to claim they are doing.

Secondly, we have to reiterate we are open to negotiations if someone approaches us. To date we have never had any interactions with PEACE since the incident that led to the war except hostile ones, and we invite the Hive or PEACE to approach us formally with any proposals. A demand for a ceasefire is not negotiation, nor is it in the best interests of the safety of CPU citizens, as we would effectively be told we cannot defend them without any reassurances to us in return, especially by the pirate forces operating out of PEACE-controlled bases. If the Hive is so keen on peace, then do something about it instead of just talking - get PEACE to open negotiations or do it themselves, but do not makie vague demands that are of no comfort to CPU citizens, who are equally as important as any other faction's citizen peaceloving citizen.

	03-03-2004 18:16									#57
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well the problem is that the HIVE first wants a cease fire before we go talk...

	03-03-2004 18:40									#58
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Well, let's offer one to PEACE (not accepted by us yet) when we send the turn to them. It takes two turns anyway before some forces can assimilate the last PEACE base. Meanwhile I suggest taking out as many PEACE units as we can find.

That way, PEACE is not in a position to do us harm, and the ball is in their field whether they accept a truce or not.

For those who really want PEACE destroyed, remember that the first Drones response indicates that they don't want PEACE gone from the game. Perhaps this is sufficient for the short term to keep them out.

Also, in my opinion, it becomes time that our diplomaty hints at the atrocities Hive is performing on the Angels.

	03-03-2004 21:29									#59
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Drogue doesn't seem to be here, so I'd suggest everyone posts whatever they want in the Planetary Council thread.

	04-03-2004 11:00									#60
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Also, in my opinion, it becomes time that our diplomaty hints at the atrocities Hive is performing on the Angels.

Ah, yes, that reminds me. What exactly is going on between the Hive and the Agensl? And if they're at war, can the Hive really afford to attack us at the same time?