04-03-2004 18:25									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Bad news everyone: Both the senate and house of Utah passed the amendment. Now we just wait for a gov signature...Which were sure to get However on a (dim) upside, protestors to this turned out in record numbers in SLC, suprrising even the organizers. SLC is becoming the most un-Utah city in Utah!

vicious, bigoted backlash, here we come

	04-03-2004 20:54									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi 1. Are there any benefits that society derives from keeping marriage as one man and one woman? 2. Should these benefits be compensated for by society?

1. No.

2. Irrelevant if the answer to #1 is no.

	04-03-2004 21:43									#63
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FYI, here is a link to California's domestic partner law. It provides full equality under California law to domestic partners simply by registering.

Note that it does not affect federal law. Federal law still requires marriage between a man and a woman to obtain federal benefits. So long as the defense of marriage act exists, California can do nothing to affect this difference between state and federal law.

http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/...ord?record=1320

	04-03-2004 23:41									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior I would make this a states issue for now.

I wouldn't.
There was a period in American history where another class of citizens was opressed, or hated, by the American people....If it had been a states rights issue then, they would still be opressed

	04-03-2004 23:45									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar I wouldn't. There was a period in American history where another class of citizens was opressed, or hated, by the American people....If it had been a states rights issue then, they would still be opressed

What? In the land of the free? Preposterous!

	05-03-2004 00:00									#66
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Your right.
All American citizens are treated equally! Those who say otherwise are gay!

	05-03-2004 00:02									#67
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IMO, in the history of United States, state's rights was never an ideal principle -- it was always a means to an end -- whether that end was justifiable or not though, is another question.

	05-03-2004 00:33									#68
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I personally think that Kalifornia's domestic partner law will be the model for the whole nation. We simply register domestic partners and they have full rights. We at the same time abolish marriage licenses and civil ceremonies.

There is nothing in the DoMA that excludes domestic partner rights.

	05-03-2004 01:49									#69
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It's a bit amusing, in a sad way, to note that one of the principal authors of the Defense of Marriage Act, former Rep. Bob Barr (ah, how nice to say "former"), was himself married 3 times. The joke around Capitol Hill was, "Which marriage are you defending, Bob?"

	05-03-2004 01:53									#70
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Boris -- the "sanctity of marriage" ideology is based on idealization rather than reality. Just as 19th century "separate spheres" for gender relations was an idealization that was out of touch with reality.

	05-03-2004 01:58									#71
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Yes, I'm quite aware of that, thank you. You'll note the purpose of my above post was to relate a humorous quip...

	05-03-2004 02:13									#72
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quote: former Rep. Bob Barr (ah, how nice to say "former")

He still has influence in Washington, but mostly from being a lawyer for the ACLU.

	05-03-2004 04:31									#73
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Sudden, stupid thought: does the ACLU have ACLU what's going on?


Sorry, couldn't resist.

	05-03-2004 06:22									#74
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quote: Society "encourages" marriage, if it still does at all, for the reasons I mentioned to Ned: to encourage loyalty within a family unit.

Sidesteps the question.

What constitutes a family unit? Does society have an interest in children?

quote: Like it or not, gays are now forming family structures of their own.

But why should the state provide any benefits and encouragement of this structure?

quote: It's not a matter of allowing homosexuality itself (good luck trying to stop them from doing that), but of allowing people who want to live more closely to do so, regardless of what body part they like to penetrate.

I don't disagree. Where I disagree is that the state has a responsibility to recognise these relationships. The state will not prevent two men from living with each other, should that be their desire.

quote: U.S. traditionally errs on the side of liberty: if there is no apparent harm done, let it go.

They have erred on the side of liberty by allowing these relationships. Liberty has not relevance to the issue of whether the government should recognise these relationships.

quote: It's not the government's duty to tell people right and wrong.

Yes it is. The government does this all the time, with laws governing society? Should we be able to punish someone for assault, for murder? The government has a responsibility to protect citizens, and thus, they prevent citizens from harming each other.

They also have an interest in the perpetuation of society. That is where this question come in. Family structures are one of the most enduring institutions, which is why tinkering with them will have effects and repercussions to the state and the perpetuation of society.

	05-03-2004 06:23									#75
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Che & Kontiki?

Then how do you explain society's interest in the preservation of marriage?

	05-03-2004 06:26									#76
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quote: There was a period in American history where another class of citizens was opressed, or hated, by the American people....If it had been a states rights issue then, they would still be opressed

Fought a war over the issue.

	05-03-2004 06:28									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi quote: There was a period in American history where another class of citizens was opressed, or hated, by the American people....If it had been a states rights issue then, they would still be opressed Fought a war over the issue.

You're talking about the Brits and Tea, right?

	05-03-2004 06:31									#78
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No.

Civil War.

States rights.

I'm not pleased with some of the trends right now.

	05-03-2004 06:34									#79
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Riiiight... since if Bill gets married to Bob that will inevitably lead to the downfall of Western civilization.

	05-03-2004 06:39									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Family structures are one of the most enduring institutions, which is why tinkering with them will have effects and repercussions to the state and the perpetuation of society.

You still have to demonstrate that these effects would be harmful.

And get literate about anthropology. The family structures are arbitrary to each society. They're no big deals at all.

	05-03-2004 07:13									#81
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quote: since if Bill gets married to Bob that will inevitably lead to the downfall of Western civilization.

Lack of consultation, that's what's getting people riled up more than anything else.

	05-03-2004 07:15									#82
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quote: The family structures are arbitrary to each society. They're no big deals at all.

No, they are not arbitrary. They play a huge role in the society. That's my point, not that we know of the negative effects, but rather, that they play an important part in the transmission of society.

Ask yourself this.

Why should people fight and die for a country that rejects their beliefs? Why should they defend the laws?

	05-03-2004 07:21									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No, they are not arbitrary. They play a huge role in the society. That's my point, not that we know of the negative effects, but rather, that they play an important part in the transmission of society.

That something is arbitrary doesn't mean it can't play an important rule. (Well, familial structures are arbitrary) As long as our values can be passed on our children, everything is fine.

	05-03-2004 07:26									#84
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I will repeat it one more time Ben... any couple or family that lets the fact of gay people getting married effect their relationship probably shouldn't be married in the first place.

I'm catholic... if gays were allowed to be "married" it wouldn't change ONE THING about how I feel about my wife... my family... And frankly, you know damn well it wouldn't effect how you feel either about your loved ones either. Your position has NOTHING to do with how it would effect you. It has EVERYTHING to do with your beliefs and your religion. So again... it's not really true love if you let outside things that DON'T MATTER effect your relationship. The Lord said to let him be the judge... Let him do it. Your job is to be a good Christian and live YOUR life by the rules he's given you.

	05-03-2004 08:41									#85
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Better watch yourself, Ming. Attack the arguments, not the people, or I'll report your opinions to the Pope and get you excommunicated for two weeks...

	05-03-2004 11:21									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I'm catholic

	05-03-2004 13:15									#87
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun

So am I, Funny bunny.

So's the gay priest and his bishop I knew (not in the kenobist fashion of 'knew').

	05-03-2004 15:11									#88
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damn, molly. I was about to post the obvious joke.

	05-03-2004 15:29									#89
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Ming:

I think you either underestimate your influence when you post. Maybe I won't change my position, but you tend to attract others to agree with you.

quote: I'm catholic...

I'm not. Nor do I hold it against you, your position on these matters. Nor do I condemn you for betraying your religion, as you seem quite eager to do for me.

I don't think I've ever brought your religion into these arguments, while everytime you bring in mine.

How fair is that?

quote: if gays were allowed to be "married" it wouldn't change ONE THING about how I feel about my wife... my family... And frankly, you know damn well it wouldn't effect how you feel either about your loved ones either.

Not really my point. I don't EVER say that your marriage will fall apart, or even the one that I hope to have as a result of these changes. Rather, I have been asking for a good reason put forth to allow gay marriage.

quote: Your position has NOTHING to do with how it would effect you.

And why should I only be able to speak out on issues that can be shown to have a direct effect on me? Moral issues are moral issues.

quote: The Lord said to let him be the judge... Let him do it. Your job is to be a good Christian and live YOUR life by the rules he's given you.

He also says to spread his Gospel. Christians are supposed to live out their life in Christ, and part of mine means that I stand up for what I believe to be right.

	05-03-2004 16:02									#90
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quote: I'm not. Nor do I hold it against you, your position on these matters. Nor do I condemn you for betraying your religion, as you seem quite eager to do for me.

This strangely reminds me the sectarian cretin I had on the phone two days ago. He left the Communist Party disgruntled by its evolution, and he now calls me a "turncoat" (and calls higher leaders "betrayers") for staying in the party. Combine this with an utter unwillingness to listen to my side of the story, and you get the picture: a Commie Kenobi