06-03-2004 00:40									#91
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But you just said this wasn't about him being a philosopher (ie, contributing to philosophy).

That quote, once again, doesn't show that he had any interest in philosophy.

He was a mathematician and scientist, and his work has since been applied with and adopted by philosophers, but this does not mean that he was a philosopher (or perhaps he was, and this just shows that we do not need philosophers who do nothing but think), and most importantly, it doesn't say he had an interest in philosophy.

He was a mathematician interested in computing machinery, and also interested in supporting constructs necessary for that (ie, symbolic logic).

He's repeatedly claimed he wasn't a philosopher, and has also expressed contempt for the modern "philosophers" just as I do.

	06-03-2004 01:37									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Asher But you just said this wasn't about him being a philosopher (ie, contributing to philosophy). He's repeatedly claimed he wasn't a philosopher, and has also expressed contempt for the modern "philosophers" just as I do.

I think you haven't read Hodges' biography of Turing, have you?

I also think you're using a definition of philosophy that moves to suit your purposes.

To be interested in does not= to be a practitioner of what one is interested in.

Do you have an interest in music?

Does this then mean you are a musician by profession?

Do you have an interest in food?

Are you then a farmer, chef, nutritionist or dietician?

One may have an interest in philosophy and not describe oneself as a philosopher- one may even contribute to a journal of philosophy, as Turing did, and still not consider oneself a philosopher.

'This is the core of the problem Turing faced, and the same problem faces Artificial Intelligence research today. Turing's underlying argument was that the human brain must somehow be organised for intelligence, and that the organisation of the brain must be realisable as a finite discrete-state machine.

The implications of this view were exposed to a wider circle in his famous paper, "Computing Machinery
and Intelligence," which appeared in Mind in October 1950.
The appearance of this paper, Turing's first foray into a journal of philosophy, was stimulated by his discussions at Manchester University with Michael Polanyi.

It also reflects the general sympathy of Gilbert Ryle, editor of Mind, with Turing's point of view.
Turing's 1950 paper was meant for a wide readership and should be read in its original; it has often been reprinted. Not surprisingly, the paper has attracted
many critiques. Not all commentators note the careful explication of computability which opens the paper, with an emphasis on the concept of the universal machine.
This explains why if mental function can be achieved by any finite discrete state machine, then the same effect can be achieved by programming a computer (Turing 1950b, p. 442).
(Note, however, that Turing makes no claim that the nervous system should resemble a digital computer in its structure.) '

	06-03-2004 02:45									#93
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Nice one Molly. I don't know much about Turing myself. Way too modern for me.

Asher is pwned.


And will the last Canadian to leave the tory party please turn out the lights.

	06-03-2004 02:46									#94
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I am rethinking my views on Harper. I think he'll bomb in the Maritimes, but I don't see a lot of viable alternatives as leader. ?

Its possible that the Conservatives will maintain their status in Atlantic provinces if Harper makes a point of not saying anything too controversial. There are seats that have been PC strongholds for a long long time. If the incumbent PCs run for the "new" party, I could see the conservatives holding on to their 10 or so Atlantic Canadian seats in spite of their leader.

Belinda has the advantage of little negative political baggage but I have not seen enough of her to assess whther she has the skills to be an effective leader

	06-03-2004 03:09									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Nice one Molly. I don't know much about Turing myself. Way too modern for me. Asher is pwned. And will the last Canadian to leave the tory party please turn out the lights.

A great lost opportunity, that not all Wittgenstein's discussions with Turing were recorded, only those relating to mathematical/philosophical concepts.

Imagine, that Wittgenstein discussing mathematics, and him a philosopher.

The cheek.

I think Asher was displaying distinct kenobist tendencies in his argument- a Western Canada affectation? -perhaps a refresher course in logic and language might help him.

	06-03-2004 03:16									#96
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom A great lost opportunity, that not all Wittgenstein's discussions with Turing were recorded, only those relating to mathematical/philosophical concepts. Imagine, that Wittgenstein discussing mathematics, and him a philosopher. The cheek. I think Asher was displaying distinct kenobist tendencies in his argument- a Western Canada affectation? -perhaps a refresher course in logic and language might help him.

You're forgetting that Wittgenstein started out as an engineer and became interested in philosophy because he wondered about the foundations of mathematics.

The locals near his holiday shack in Ireland thought he was a magician who had strange powers over birds.

He's also a gay hero.

	06-03-2004 03:22									#97
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You have to love Poly - from Belinda Stronach to Wittgenstein in less than ten moves.

	06-03-2004 03:33									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Its possible that the Conservatives will maintain their status in Atlantic provinces if Harper makes a point of not saying anything too controversial. There are seats that have been PC strongholds for a long long time. If the incumbent PCs run for the "new" party, I could see the conservatives holding on to their 10 or so Atlantic Canadian seats in spite of their leader. Belinda has the advantage of little negative political baggage but I have not seen enough of her to assess whther she has the skills to be an effective leader

I think it will come down to how many people cling to something stupid he said a couple years ago, and how many think that it is time for a change. I'm not enamored with Harper either, but there has to be a large enough threat to the Liberals that Martin can use the threat of defeat to ram home some reforms, which I think he is serious about.

With Harper and a strong contingent of Conservatives (~100 MPS) I think we could get a pretty good government out of Martin. I am less sure if the Conservatives pick a leader who doesn't have any idea how Ottawa works, and who hasn't spent as much time working on the subject of reforming Ottawa.

It is seeming to me that Harper's time is coming. Whatever my misgivings about him, he has worked toward the goal of reforming Ottawa for the last 20 years. Martin seems to agree that it is needed. It might be ironic that Harper could be in opposition when it is accomplished, but I can't think of many people who would be a better goad to get Martin and the Liberals to act, and I can't imagine anyone better than a Liberal to get some of the vested interests to cooperate.

	06-03-2004 03:58									#99
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I'm actually surprised that this $100mil has caused such a fuss... I guess it's more just the fact that this is the straw that broke the camel's back. There've been so many instances of corruption that aggregated together...

For me, the huge problem is the gun registry. $2bil. TWO BILLION. That's unacceptable.

However, I'm still wary of the Tories. Ah, we'll see how it goes.

AND a sub-question: I know some folks who got something in the mail from Elections Canada that they had to fill out and send back. Was this voter registration? Is it true that there was a deadline for sending them back? I know about the whole "automatic voter list" thingy in Canada, but I'm unsure as to what exactly a recently-legal person has to do in order to vote. Anyone?

	06-03-2004 04:09									#100
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It probably would be better to follow the instructions, but you can always add your name to the registry even a few days before the election. In this case, you would have to follow a procedure with witnesses, etc.

	06-03-2004 09:18									#101
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I also think you're using a definition of philosophy that moves to suit your purposes.

I'm using a specific definition for a reason, because I realize that "philosophy" can be generalized to a great many things. In particular, I'm referring to people who proclaim themselves to be philosophers and study things like -- I don't know -- philosophy, rather than another field.

quote: To be interested in does not= to be a practitioner of what one is interested in.

Indeed, but you've never shown that Turing has an "interest in" Philosophy. Showing links saying things he's done have contributed to philosophy does not show he's interested in philosophy. All it shows is what he's done is useful in many fields, not just the one he was speaking about.

quote: Do you have an interest in music? Does this then mean you are a musician by profession? Do you have an interest in food? Are you then a farmer, chef, nutritionist or dietician?

I have an interest in music, and I am a musician.
I don't have an interest in food, and I'm not a chef, etc.

quote: One may have an interest in philosophy and not describe oneself as a philosopher- one may even contribute to a journal of philosophy, as Turing did, and still not consider oneself a philosopher.

You're skirting around the fundamental issue that you've never shown he has an interest in philosophy. His work has since been used by philosophers and published in philosophy journals, but this does not mean he took interest in, say, Plato...

quote: This is the core of the problem Turing faced, and the same problem faces Artificial Intelligence research today. Turing's underlying argument was that the human brain must somehow be organised for intelligence, and that the organisation of the brain must be realisable as a finite discrete-state machine. The implications of this view were exposed to a wider circle in his famous paper, "Computing Machinery and Intelligence," which appeared in Mind in October 1950. The appearance of this paper, Turing's first foray into a journal of philosophy, was stimulated by his discussions at Manchester University with Michael Polanyi. It also reflects the general sympathy of Gilbert Ryle, editor of Mind, with Turing's point of view. Turing's 1950 paper was meant for a wide readership and should be read in its original; it has often been reprinted. Not surprisingly, the paper has attracted many critiques. Not all commentators note the careful explication of computability which opens the paper, with an emphasis on the concept of the universal machine. This explains why if mental function can be achieved by any finite discrete state machine, then the same effect can be achieved by programming a computer (Turing 1950b, p. 442). (Note, however, that Turing makes no claim that the nervous system should resemble a digital computer in its structure.) '

Your own article states very clearly that "Turing's 1950 paper was meant for a wide readership", which is why it was his first article published in a more mainstream journal.

You've still yet to connect the dots to show he has an interest in philosophy. I would imagine this is a rather important part of any argument claiming he has an interest in philosophy. Showing that a paper he wrote was published in a philosophy journal doesn't show he was interested in philosophy...

	06-03-2004 09:21									#102
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom A great lost opportunity, that not all Wittgenstein's discussions with Turing were recorded, only those relating to mathematical/philosophical concepts. Imagine, that Wittgenstein discussing mathematics, and him a philosopher. The cheek. I think Asher was displaying distinct kenobist tendencies in his argument- a Western Canada affectation? -perhaps a refresher course in logic and language might help him.

If anyone needs a course in logic, it would be the two people here who seem to think an argument which never addresses Turing's interest in philosophy, or lack thereof, somehow proves he's interested in philosophy.

I've posted in Philosophy threads and talked with philosophers, so I am suddenly interested in philosophy?

	06-03-2004 09:29									#103
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quote: Showing that a paper he wrote was published in a philosophy journal doesn't show he was interested in philosophy...

It says thet he wrote it FOR a philosophy journal, which pretty much demonstrates his interest on the topic.

What kind of proof do you expect? Shall we interrogate his dead body to know the answer?

	06-03-2004 09:33									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris It says thet he wrote it FOR a philosophy journal, which pretty much demonstrates his interest on the topic.

Mind quoting me which part said that?

To me, it reads:

quote: The implications of this view were exposed to a wider circle in his famous paper, "Computing Machinery and Intelligence," which appeared in Mind in October 1950.

quote: What kind of proof do you expect? Shall we interrogate his dead body to know the answer?

Perhaps some quotes he's made about philosophy? All of the ones I know of are where he's very clear on distancing himself from being a philosopher, all of which included very negative connotations for reasons why he'd want to distance himself.

	06-03-2004 09:36									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Nice one Molly. I don't know much about Turing myself. Way too modern for me.

You would be less useless if you understood perhaps the most relevant mind of the last century. He's revolutionized the world, and you don't know much about him? Agathon, dear, being the 1 millionth person to analyze Plato in depth isn't very helpful. If you're going to be a philosopher, study modern things and progress from there.

Turing was also gay, by the way. "Convicted" of homosexuality in 52, was given injections to kill his sex drive, and committed suicide in 54.

He also cracked the Enigma code in WW2...

	06-03-2004 09:41									#106
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For who exactly did he write the paper? There's probably a reason it didn't appear in a science mag.

	06-03-2004 09:42									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris For who exactly did he write the paper? There's probably a reason it didn't appear in a science mag.

It's appeared in many science journals...

He doesn't just write papers under commission from a journal or something. He writes them to get his ideas in the open.

It also was printed in The World of Mathematics, not just Mind.

	06-03-2004 09:43									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You would be less useless if you understood perhaps the most relevant mind of the last century. He's revolutionized the world, and you don't know much about him? Agathon, dear, being the 1 millionth person to analyze Plato in depth isn't very helpful. If you're going to be a philosopher, study modern things and progress from there.

Yeaaaaah, why are we bothering to offer 'introduction to machine language' courses? Those people would be better revolutionizing the world, every 2 months!

	06-03-2004 09:44									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's appeared in many science journals...

If it was only retaken by the philosophy journal, then it doesn't demonstrate anything about Turing's interest.

If it was first published in it, though, the issue is settled.

	06-03-2004 09:50									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris If it was only retaken by the philosophy journal, then it doesn't demonstrate anything about Turing's interest. If it was first published in it, though, the issue is settled.

What kind of logic is that? ...

That paper was not his first published on mechanized intelligence.

Proposed Electronic Calculator was published in '46.
The Automatic Computing Engine in '47.
Intelligent Machinery in '48.

Computing Machinery and Intelligence was published in '50, in "Mind", because Turing wanted a wider audience than his previous works. He would be preaching to the choir if he simply kept adding new journals to the regular math journals.

So he chose Mind, for a wider audience. Something which molly's article says quite literally.

	06-03-2004 09:57									#111
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BTW, Computing Machinery and Intelligence is available online here: http://www.abelard.org/turpap/turpap.htm

	06-03-2004 11:52									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Asher What kind of logic is that? ... So he chose Mind, for a wider audience. Something which molly's article says quite literally.

Better than yours- he published a paper in a journal of philosophy because he mistook it for Popular Mechanics, or Sheepfarmers' Monthly, hmm?


Yes, for an audience familiar with philosophical concepts such as what constitutes consciousness, how may consciousness be differentiated between machines and humans if it exists in both, and so on he publishes in a journal where such familiar ideas are debated.

If you imagine that consciousness is not a proper subject for philosophical debate, or has not been, then you are demonstrating an obtuseness which will not be penetrated by even small words spoken slowly or spelt out in big letters. Try Rene Descartes, for instance- cogito, ergo sum.

Did Turing ever say anything about his feet?

Shall we then assume he had no interest in wearing footwear?

He does not have to say explicitly:

'I am interested in philosophy'

to be interested in many different aspects of logic, reason, thought, morality, all of which can usefully covered by the umbrella term philosophy.

That is, philosophy which is the pursuit of wisdom, or of the knowledge of things and their causes (natural, moral, et cetera), the study of ultimate realities and general principles, well I could go on, but try to pretend that Turing wasn't interested in any of those things when he was talking with Wittgenstein or trying to define consciousness.

	06-03-2004 12:43									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The Conservative support will drop after Stronach gets "elected".

Yes, because all the moderates will be frightened back to the Liberals by the selection of a moderate leader.

	06-03-2004 18:13									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You're forgetting that Wittgenstein started out as an engineer and became interested in philosophy because he wondered about the foundations of mathematics.

No wonder his philosophy rots.

Actually, I am only familar with his religious philosophy, and that part certainly smells. It's particularly ironic that he understand something about maths.

	06-03-2004 18:21									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger No wonder his philosophy rots. Actually, I am only familar with his religious philosophy, and that part certainly smells. It's particularly ironic that he understand something about maths.

What religious philosophy?

	07-03-2004 01:42									#116
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Too late to join the Conservatives to vote in the leadership race. Cut off was last week.

The way they have decided to conduct the voting - having each riding in Canada worth 100 points for a total of 30800 points, would make your vote in Calgary absolutely useless. Most Calgary riding associations have between 1000 - 3000 members, the vast majority of which are Harper supporters.

If Gay rights, or any other human rights issues are a make or break issue join the NDP.

I'm in Calgary for 6 more weeks - Buy me a beer and I'll sign you up !!

	07-03-2004 01:58									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Asher A true scientist can ignore a philosopher, because all of those exist without a pesky beret following you around with "what ifs" and "whys" when there is work to be done.

Isn't the work of a true scientist to ask things like "what if" and "why"? Isn't that like the whole point of being a scientist, questioning the way things are and reasoning out answers based on the evidence found?

	07-03-2004 03:18									#118
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Shh, Starchild. He's a computer "scientist".

	07-03-2004 04:10									#119
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I thought the rule was not to ask 'why', but instead to ask 'how'. Why isn't very productive outside of Theology. Or something like that.

quote: Originally posted by Uncle Sparky Too late to join the Conservatives to vote in the leadership race. Cut off was last week. The way they have decided to conduct the voting - having each riding in Canada worth 100 points for a total of 30800 points, would make your vote in Calgary absolutely useless. Most Calgary riding associations have between 1000 - 3000 members, the vast majority of which are Harper supporters. If Gay rights, or any other human rights issues are a make or break issue join the NDP. I'm in Calgary for 6 more weeks - Buy me a beer and I'll sign you up !!

There's no way in Hades that the Conservatives would have agreed to merge if it were done any other way. The point is to rebuild the party in the ROC and have something capable of forming a government, not to have yet another party dominated by Westerners with zero chance of success East of Thunder Bay.

I'm sure the ND are disappointed that the Tories didn't commit electoral suicide and held out for that point.

	07-03-2004 12:19									#120
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quote: Yes, because all the moderates will be frightened back to the Liberals by the selection of a moderate leader.

Why would they vote for a Conservative party that is Liberal-lite?

I can vote for the Liberals if that is what I want.