06-03-2004 21:06									#61
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quote: Originally posted by JCG Yup. Anyone who says that sustained and indiscriminate violence against civilians (not military or government targets), is ok, pretty much doesn't deserve to succeed at whatever goal they are working towards. Let's take the case of ETA. There are Basque separatists that totally reject their violent actions (several of which have hurt Basques too) and participate in protests against them, even if they might share what, superficially, are similar goals (with the added difference, of course, that ETA would do everything in its power to forcefully implant quite a different type of government, in any future Basque state, including resorting to even more terrorism....)

Consider this how many revolutions have come about peacefully. Most Revolutions happen when I minority of people take up arms against the ruling system. Such was the case with the American revolution.

	06-03-2004 21:11									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Freedom fighter: someone who's main goal is the liberation of a certain group of existing opression.

That definitely makes Arafat a freedom fighter then (which he was, so everything is fine )

	06-03-2004 21:49									#63
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Terrorist: the guy who lost.
Freedom fighter: the guy who won.

	06-03-2004 21:50									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus So MrBaggins, You're saying that the Firebombing of Dresden and nuking Hiroshima are not Terrorist acts but 9/11, blowing up and hijacking airplanes is. I personally would be more terrorized by Dresden than 9/11. Defining terror as to cause fear. The purpose of Dreseden and hiroshima was to break the spirit and resolve of the Axis to conduct war. I believe Al queda saw the Pentagon, whithouse, and wtc as centers of western power and thius military targets as well as hoping to break the spirit of the west to continue what they see as a cultural/religous war. I believe President Bush sees it the same way. anyway this would make 9/11 not a terrorist act but would include Hiroshima as a terrorist act. The past defintion of a state has included land as a prerequisite but members of organizations classified as terrorist or hate groups normally have more allegiance to the organization than to the land they reside in.

We were not at war with al Queda at the time of 911, though I might remind you that prior to 911 al Queda had conducted a number of attacks on Americans throughout the world, including the first attempt to destroy the World Trade Center, the bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, and the bombing of the Cole . All this merely for defending Kuwait and having a favorable foreign policy towards Israel.

Regarding Dresden and Hiroshima all I need to do is point out that it was the Germans and Japanese who first used the tactic of terror bombing in WW2. At the time of the bombing of Drersden the Germans had begun a policy of farming out the production of small parts to shops and homes in their cities in an attempt to maintain production in the face of the destruction of their large factories. Thus they turned the cities themselves into war factories. Hiroshima was one of the few remaining unbombed harbors of the IJN. First and foremost though the Axis powers had begun the terror bombing. Today people point the finger at the US (and Britain) because by the war's end the Allies had built much more powerful air forces. I assure you that in 1942 no one outside of Germany and Japan saw it that way.

	06-03-2004 21:59									#65
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I'm sure that Al Queada felt we were at war with them.
i'm not pointing the finger at the U.S. and Britain to say that they are bad. I'm pointing to an act and asking is this terrorism.

If you consider Dresden a legitmate target, then it seems that you would consider a discriminated attack on a particular building not terrorism.

	06-03-2004 22:01									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus Consider this how many revolutions have come about peacefully.

Perhaps not all previous revolutions could have been peaceful at the time...but today, 2004, there's a difference between a revolution that has an active popular support (or at least widespread sympathy) and at least chooses its targets wisely (thus not alienating that support), and one that basically says "we will kill anyone, anytime, anywhere, for as long as we have to, in order to achive the XYZ...and to hell with everything else that stands in our way."

quote: Most Revolutions happen when I minority of people take up arms against the ruling system. Such was the case with the American revolution.

Not an expert on the subject, but even in that case, perhaps it could be argued that much more than a tiny minority of the people were at least somewhat dissatified with the colonial administration and favored some sort of change in the situation (plus I don't remember hearing/reading that the American Revolutionaries were killing or hurting people left and right using indiscriminate methods).

	06-03-2004 22:09									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus If you consider Dresden a legitmate target, then it seems that you would consider a discriminated attack on a particular building not terrorism.

Remember that this was a real, declared war against a group of people whose avowed goals were the subjugation of all non-German and non-Japanese humanity and the elimination of huge chunks of it including not only Jews and Gypsies, but also most dark skinned peoples.
By distributing war production throughout their cities the Germans had managed to more than double their production of tanks and warplanes. Thus Dresden was literally a huge war factory. The World Trade Center on the other hand was not at all involved in war materials production.

	06-03-2004 22:13									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor That definitely makes Arafat a freedom fighter then (which he was, so everything is fine )

That's obviously not correct. As long as he was given power in the west bank and gaza, he constituted opression of his own.

	06-03-2004 22:14									#69
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Only independent organizations can be terrorists... if "violent acts" are linked directly to the government, then that would be considered open war, or espionage.

What about White or Red Terror, say McCarthyism? Isn't that terrorism?

	06-03-2004 22:24									#70
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quote: Originally posted by JCG Yup. Anyone who says that sustained and indiscriminate violence against civilians (not military or government targets), is ok, pretty much doesn't deserve to succeed at whatever goal they are working towards.

Is it okay to send in troops to remove a legitimate government to install your own puppet, but not okay if you kill of a political opponent? Why?

	06-03-2004 22:30									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Is it okay to send in troops to remove a legitimate government to install your own puppet, but not okay if you kill of a political opponent? Why?

In principle, neither of the above situations would be "okay".

That's where context, interpretation and, to put it bluntly, political/ideological leanings come into play.

	07-03-2004 01:55									#72
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Would Ted Kazcynsky be considered a freedom fighter since he was very discriminating in his targets and his manifesto is a declaration of war against industrial society.

	07-03-2004 02:11									#73
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this thread (i only read the first page) fails to distinguish several things about this king of fighting.


Every organzation can be analyzed according to 3 criteria.

Goal: If the real goal is liberation of an oppressed nationality , then it's a freedom fighter.

Means: this divides into two: Method and Target.

Method: Either standard warfare or guerilla warfare.
Target: Either government and military, or civilians / indiscriminate.

Now a terrorist organization is an organization that uses violence (usually guerilla warfare) against the target "civilians / indiscriminate killing".


An organization can be both "freedom fighters" and "terrorists".

The former describes their end goal, and the latter describes the target of their violent warfare methods.

	07-03-2004 02:34									#74
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Actually the subversive purpose of this thread is to prove that there is no real distinction between a terrorist and a freedom fighter. There are no organizations that exist specifically for the purpose of terrorizing. Each organization has a specific goal and theoretically when that goal is met they would cease hostilities. Also, each organiziation has what it considers to be legitimate targets. targets could be the taxpayers for a given country, office workers, munitions factory workers, key individuals, or property. Each group basically uses the means available conventional and unconventional to acheive their goals.
Once again since the goal is never to terrorize then their is actually no such thing as a terrorist.

	07-03-2004 02:39									#75
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The shear stupidity of this thread amuses me.

	07-03-2004 02:39									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus Actually the subversive purpose of this thread is to prove that there is no real distinction between a terrorist and a freedom fighter. There are no organizations that exist specifically for the purpose of terrorizing. Each organization has a specific goal and theoretically when that goal is met they would cease hostilities.

Doesn't make all terrorists freedom fighters, since you can hardly call the fight for any goals a fight for freedom.

	07-03-2004 02:55									#77
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The shear stupidity of this thread amuses me.

What's stupid about it? If you're not interested stay away.

	07-03-2004 02:57									#78
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Doesn't make all terrorists freedom fighters, since you can hardly call the fight for any goals a fight for freedom.

These groups all felt they were being oppressed in one way or another. The KKK is a good example.

	07-03-2004 02:57									#79
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PAX, I think that any armed revolutions or struggle whose goal is not to overthrow oppression but to install oppression in the form of anti-democratic regimes are "terrorist" even if they do not employ terror. The converse is also true. Any revolution or struggle whose aim is to overthrow oppression in order to install democracy is for "freedom" even if it does use terror (as in Dresden, for example).

I don't have to go through your list to tell you how I would come out on your survey. All communist/nazi struggles are terrorist, per se. Many others on your list have shades of grey.

	07-03-2004 02:58									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus What's stupid about it?

The whole terrorist/guerilla (Freedom fighter is too emotive a term for me to take seriously) debate.

	07-03-2004 04:28									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove So you would classify the Nazi party as freedom fighters? IIRC that was exactly what they claimed to be. Would you actually put the Nazis and America's revolutionary leaders in the same category?

No, the Nazi's were a recognised, democratically elected government. They were not terrorists. War criminals yes, but not terrorists.

	07-03-2004 06:23									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh No, the Nazi's were a recognised, democratically elected government. They were not terrorists. War criminals yes, but not terrorists.

OK, now we're getting somewhere.

Before they were elected though they exercised considerable intimidation and violence against their political rivals and innocent minorities. Were they terrorists then?

	07-03-2004 06:23									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh democratically elected .

Perhaps it's just a matter of semantics, but legally elected would be a more accurate description....... democratically elected? Not exactly.

Yeah, people always claim that but it seems that they don't take into consideration the intimidation (both physical and otherwise) and other behind-the-scenes stuff that was happening both before and during the process, to say the very least...doesn't sound like a very democratic and free election to me (even if the Nazis did have a bigger plurality behind them at first or even, eventually, a majority).

	07-03-2004 06:28									#84
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The Freedom Fighter is the one with the moral high ground. In America, the revolutionaries had it, because they (AFAIK, except for possibly rogue elements) did not target civilians and were opposing oppression. In Israel, the suicide bombers do not, because whether or not they are fighting an oppressor, they are targetting civilians.

	07-03-2004 06:48									#85
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quote: Once again since the goal is never to terrorize then their is actually no such thing as a terrorist.

I appologize in advance for being blunt - but this phrase is stupid. Terrorism is a means - not an end goal.

That is like saying that because we mostly don't drive cars just for the heck of it, and instead usually have an intention to get some place, then we aren't really drivers. We're really "some-place goers", because that is our real goal.



Terrorism is a method. If someone terrorises for the sheer fun of it, then he's a sick bastard - but that's another story.

Terrorism is always a method used for some goals - some more and some less worthy - usually political.

	07-03-2004 06:55									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus ETA(Basque Seperatists) Mission: Autonomous state for Basques in Northeast corner of Spain, West corner of France.

The fact they blow up innocent civilians and once packed explosives in a doll which killed the child playing with it. ETA are nothing more than terrorists who should all rot in hell, if there is one.

	07-03-2004 12:53									#87
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The whole terrorist/guerilla (Freedom fighter is too emotive a term for me to take seriously) debate.

So terrorist is not "too emotive" a term?

	07-03-2004 13:30									#88
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the ETA are freedom fighters.

	07-03-2004 13:36									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia the ETA are freedom fighters.

No they are not. If you believe that you should be held for supporting terrorism.

	07-03-2004 13:56									#90
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there he is. i was wondering when he would come out. +1.