13-03-2004 02:42									#31
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In the meantime we'll just all abuse Ducki since it naturally has to be his fault that the mod isn't finished for him to use in setting up the game.

	13-03-2004 05:49									#32
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Already?! Dang - no 501 for me...

	13-03-2004 07:09									#33
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Yeah! A Celts scenario! They're one of my favorites, because they were the first Civ I used to step up the difficulty with.. up to either Monarch or Emporer... and actually won... I currently have a Pangea game going with them where I'm desperatly trying to get someone to help Scandenavia kill my neighbors the Dutch... the reigning superpower...

Starting plan for this course would be build two warriors, start on a settler, then after one done, shift to granary...

	13-03-2004 08:05									#34
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The problem with letting the capital grow to sizes five and six is that it puts you more than a city behind where you could be in your REXing curve. That's okay once you've REXed far enough that new cities are highly corrupt and therefore of relatively marginal value in helping with further REXing, but it's not such a good thing early.

	13-03-2004 08:13									#35
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As promised. Looks like I was off a bit on my guesstimate.

Attachment: au502_minimap.jpg
This has been downloaded 148 time(s).

	13-03-2004 08:35									#36
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The middle of the world, eh? Well, always better to start at the center and grow outward

	13-03-2004 10:40									#37
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX The middle of the world, eh? Well, always better to start at the center and grow outward

Or get attacked by all the civs around you. MZO Boot Camp 2 was like that. You play as the Romans in the center of a continent with four other civs in quick striking distance. That one was touch and go for a while.

	13-03-2004 11:46									#38
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Is this a Continents, Archipelago, or Pangea map?

	13-03-2004 20:13									#39
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I saw the Oasis before my first post (That is an Oasis isn't it? I'm not sure with that graphics set), but didn't realize it meant we get +4 food in the city if we want. Still forget about them as bonus food resources...

I've also noticed in C3C you don't always get the highest production tile when growing with +3 food. IIRC 2.1.2 is prefered over 1.2.1 with +3. Definitely 2.1.1 is prefered over 1.2.0 with +3, while 1.2.1 being prefered over 2.1.1 with the same food surplus. This is something to keep in mind as it changes build queues from what they could have been in Civ/PtW.

------------------------------

You could drop to 3 turn growth with a Granary. Your food intake in that case is a relative 6.67 (20 food in 3 turns). If you let it sit at 5 turn growth instead and get the extra city your overall food intake is +6 per turn.

It's closer than that because you can get the Settler out and found the next city before the Granary comes online. Then both your cities have ~7 turns of production towards a Granary or the next Settler. So actually you have a little more than a Settler (half complete in each city, mostly complete in the +4 city), or 1.5 food per turn to add to your +6. You'll be behind on population and production like this, but a little ahead on overall food production and commerce. City centers and the free laborer for extra cities is really what gives your commerce a boost early on when you are relying on the luxury slider for happiness.

The Granary build is best to go with a Worker after the Granary. Itried it before and with +3 food to start and nothing to Irrigate right off it's just not worth it.

---------------------

I want to move the Settler 8 to build, but first want to check that I won't be missing out on a bonus food source to the W by doing so. Assumed no bonus food source W. I doubt we are being given a +5 food capitol.

This frees up the most room on the river, keeps the 3 potential 2.2 tiles in range, uncovers the most black tiles, gives us access to an Oasis for +4, and if ducki has miscalculated and given us a +5 city I'm betting it's due to another Oasis. Only downside to this city placement is there is only 1 Forest in range and chops at XX where X is a cardinal direction no longer add shields to the city. Luckily mines on Plains can work just as well.

1: Worker 1 move 4. Settler 1 move 8.
2: Worker 1 move 8. Settler 1 build city. Built Granary.
3: 0:0 Worker 1 Irrigate Desert. City has opened up an irrigation path. City food 0, production 0. Laborer to Sugar.
4: 3:2
5: 6:4
6: 9:6
7: 12:8 Irrigation done. Worker Road Desert. Worker 1 move to Oasis.
8: 15:0 Warrior is done. Start Granary. Laborer to Forest.
9: 17:3 Laborer to Sugar.
10: Size 2 0:7 Laborers to Sugar, River BG.
11: 3:10 Road Desert done. Worker 1 move to Oasis.
12: 6:13 Worker 1 Irrigate Oasis.
13: 9:17
14: 12:20 Laborers to Sugar, Forest.
15: 14:24 Laborers to Sugar, River BG.
16: 17:27
17: Size 3 0:30 Irrigate Oasis done. Worker 1 move to Sugar. Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG.
18: 4:34 Worker 1 Mine Sugar.
19: 8:38
20: 12:42
21: 16:46
22: Size 4 0:52 Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG, River G.
23: 4:56
24: 8:0 Granary done. Build Worker.
25: 12:5 Mine Sugar done. Worker 1 Road Sugar.
26: Size 3 16:0 Worker 2 done. Worker 2 move to River BG. Build Settler. Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG.
27: Size 4 10:7 Worker 2 Mine River BG. Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG, Forest
28: 12:14 Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG, River G.
29: 16:19 Road Sugar done. Worker 1 move to BG.
30: Size 5 10:26 Worker 1 Road BG. Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG, River G, River G.
31: Size 3 14:0 Settler complete. Start Warrior. Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG.
32: 16:5
33: Size 4 10:0 Warrior complete. Start Settler. Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG, Forest.
34: 12:8 Mine River BG complete. Worker 1 (start building road to city sites) Road BG complete. Worker 2 (same) Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG, BG.
35: 16:15
36: Size 5 10:24 Laborers to Oasis**, Sugar*, River BG*, BG, Forest*
37: Size 3 12(14):0 Settler complete. Start...

* These tiles can be given to the second city if in range and needed, swapping for G.
** Oasis can be given to the second city if in range. Though it's not likely to build that way unless there are more Oasis out there.

-----------------------

The other option is a Settler right off. With +4 food this isn't as good an option, but still pretty close.

1: Worker 1 move 4. Settler 8.
2: Worker 1 move 8. Settler 1 found city. Start Warrior.
3: 0:0 Worker 1 Irrigate Desert. Laborer to Sugar.
4: 3:2
5: 6:4
6: 9:6
7: 12:8 Irrigation done. Worker Road Desert. Worker 1 move to Oasis.
8: 15:0 Warrior is done. Start Settler. Laborer to Forest.
9: 17:3 Laborer to Sugar.
10: Size 2 0:7 Laborers to Sugar, River BG.
11: 3:10 Road Desert done. Worker 1 move to Oasis.
12: 6:13 Worker 1 Irrigate Oasis.
13: 9:17
14: 12:20 Laborers to Sugar, Forest.
15: 14:24 Laborers to Sugar, River BG.
16: 17:27
17: Size 1 0:0 Irrigate Oasis done. Settler done. Worker 1 move to Sugar. Laborer to Oasis

Now we have a Settler at turn 17 and our capitol is size 1 with + 4 food per turn. Grows in 5.

	13-03-2004 20:27									#40
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quote: That is an Oasis isn't it? I'm not sure with that graphics set

I'm not sure, I'd have to fire it up.
I'm terribly sorry. I forget that I use the watercolor graphics and never considered making maps before.
My mistake. I'll look into reverting my graphics to stock and doing another screengrab.

Edit: Not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I can't seem to get either the save or the biq to no have those graphics even replacing my terrain folder with my backup. /sigh

	13-03-2004 22:02									#41
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Initially I thouht that tile 877 from the start was coast/lake, but even with Snoopy's graphics, it definitely looks like oasis now that I tried to recreate the start with the editor. Cool. That changes everything. Thanks Aeson!

	13-03-2004 22:22									#42
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Aeson, your calculations are a bit off. The city would be at 0:0 the turn it is built, not the turn after that. Following your technique with some adjustments, I get:

1: Worker 1 move 4. Settler 1 move 8.
2: Worker 1 move 8. Settler 1 build city (now at 0:0 food/production). Start work on warrior; laborer to sugar.
3: 3:2 Worker 1 Irrigate Desert. City has opened up an irrigation path..
4: 6:4
5: 9:6
6: 12:8
7: 15:0 Warrior is done. Start granary. Irrigation is done. Move worker to oasis. Move laborer to forest.

(Moving the worker to the oasis rather than roading at this point is a departure from Aeson's sequence. With the real city growth pattern, this loses a worker turn when we have to go back to road the desert but it gains us a turn on city growth.)

8: 17:3 Labrer to Sugar. Worker starts irrigating oasis.
9: Size 2 0:7 Laborers to Sugar, irrigated desert.

(Aeson had us working a bonus grassland here, but that's not in range until our borders expand. The irrigated desert gives the same food and production, but doesn't give us gold.)

10: 3:10
11: 6:13
12: 9:16 Borders expand. Irrigation of oasis is completed; start road. Laborers work oasis and forest.
13: 12:20: Laborers to oasis and sugar.
14: 16:23
15: Size 3: 0:28: Road on oasis completed. Worker to irrigated desert. Laborers to oasis, sugar, and river BG.
16: 4:32: Start road.
17: 8:36
18: 12:40
19: 16:44: Road complete. Move worker to river BG.
20: Size 4: 0:50: Laborers to oasis, sugar, river BG, and irrigated desert. Start mine.
21: 4:55
22: 8:0: Granary complete. Start worker.
23: 12:5
24: Size 3: 16:0: Worker complete. Start settler. Worker 2 moves to sugar. Laborers to oasis, sugar, river BG.
25: Size 4: 0:6: Laborers to oasis, sugar, river BG, forest. Worker 2 starts mining.
26: 3:13: Worker 1 completes mine, starts road.
27: 6:20: Laborers to oasis, irrigated desert, river BG, sugear.
28: Size 5: 0:28: Laborers to oasis, sugar, river BG, river grassland, irrigated desrt. (We don't need the extra shields from working the second BG, and working a river tile gives us an extra gold.)
29: Size 3: 4:0: Settler complete. Start another settler. Worker 1 completes road; further actions depend on what our exploring warrior found out. Laborers work mined river BG, oasis, forest.
30: 7:6: Laborers to oasis, mined river BG, sugar.
31: Size 4: 0:14: Worker 2 finished mine, starts road. Laborers to oasis, mined river BG, mined sugar, forest.
32: 3:22
33: Size 2: 6:0: Settler complete. Laborers to oasis and sugar.

Note that with the granary and second settler, I had only exactly enough shields. This timeline works if the new laborers land on the river forest the way they did in my test scenario, but not otherwise.

By the way, thanks and a big for tipping us off to the oasis!

Last edited by nbarclay on 14-03-2004 at 10:25

	13-03-2004 23:22									#43
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Ack! Maybe I was thinking of waiting an extra turn to found my city... er... maybe not.

The Granary up 2 turns earlier is nice, right in line with Arrian's (without a Warrior) given the move at the start. I tried my first run through with the Worker not roading to the Oasis, but that extra turn 'lost' at the start must have been what made it seem less worthwhile.

As long as there isn't an available 2.1.2 tile for the new laborer it should be assigned to the Forest.

-----------

No problem on the graphics ducki. It's fun to have something less obvious to wonder about instead of seeing a pixel in the dark and knowing just what's on the tile. (the things some people spot in the GOTM pregame threads is truely scary... a single pixel of a wheat on a SW plains tile for instance)

	14-03-2004 11:45									#44
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I decided to try a Warrior-worker-granary variant and see how it would work out. It proved to be an interesting alternative.

1: Worker move 4. Settler move 8.
2: Worker move 8. Settler build city (now at 0:0 food/production). Start work on warrior; laborer to sugar.
3: 3:2 Worker 1 Irrigate Desert. City has opened up an irrigation path..
4: 6:4
5: 9:6
6: 12:8
7: 15:0 Warrior is done. Start worker. Irrigation is done. Move worker to oasis. Move laborer to forest.
8: 17:3 Labrer to Sugar. Worker starts irrigating oasis.
9: Size 2 0:7 Laborers to Sugar, forest. (This appears wasteful in that it sacrifices food for a shield we don't need, but it gives us an extra gold and the waste won't matter.)
10: Size 1: 2:0 Worker 2 complete. Moves to sugar. Laborer to sugar.
11: 5:2 Worker 2 starts mining.
12: 8:4 Borders expand. Irrigation of oasis is completed; start road. Laborer works oasis.
13: 12:6
14: 16:8
15: Size 2: 0:12: Road on oasis completed. Worker 1 to irrigated desert. Laborers to oasis and sugar.
16: 4:15: Worker 1 Starts road.
17: 8:19: Worker 2 finished mining, starts road. (The road won't help commerce, but it will help later movement of units.)
18: 12:23
19: 16:27: Worker 1 completes road, moves to river BG.
20: Size 3: 0:33: Laborers to oasis, sugar, and forest. Worker 1 starts mine. Worker 2 finishes road and moves to second bonus BG. (We're sacrificing growth for production by working the forest tile in order to complete our granary a turn sooner and grow a turn later. That puts us ahead on the growth curve because we benefit from the granary when we grow.)
21: 3:39: Worker 2 starts road.
22: 6:45: Laborers to oasis, sugar, and river BG.
23: 10:50
24: 14:55: Worker 2 finishes road, starts mine (or could move to start another road if the as-yet-unseen terrain indicates that that would be better).
25: 18:0 Granary complete. Start settler.
26: Size 4: 0:8: Worker 1 finishes mine, starts road. Laborers to oasis, sugar, river BG, and forest.
27: 3:16: Laborers to oasis, sugar, river BG, other BG. (It doesn't actually matter whether we make the laborer move this turn or next turn.)
28: 7:23
29: Size 3: 0:0: Settler complete; start another settler. Laborers to oasis, sugar, river BG. Worker 1 completes road; further actions depend on what our exploring warrior found out.
30: 4:6: Worker 2 finishes mine, moves to next tile to be worked. (I won't specify further worker actions.)
31: 8:12
32: Size 4: 0:20: Laborers to oasis and three mined tiles.
33: 4:28
34: Size 2: 8:0: Settler complete.

This approach produces the first settler at the same time as the previous approach but puts the capital (for practical purposes) exactly a turn behind in growth and production at the point when the second settler is finished. In exchange, it provides fourteen extra turns' work from our second worker, which should help either in getting the second or third city up to speed more quickly (whichever the second worker ends up being assigned to). I'll have to think some more about whether that tradeoff is a good one.

Last edited by nbarclay on 14-03-2004 at 13:11

	14-03-2004 12:03									#45
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I really enjoyed the new teaser approach. Very interesting to read.

	14-03-2004 13:32									#46
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Nice work getting the Worker into there with so little tradeoff. It's close either way. The benefit of those 14 Worker turns will mostly show up for the second and third cities. You could expect to make up the production (and more, probably account for ~14 shields/commerce), but if there aren't any tiles to Irrigate you may never catch up on the food side of things unless you can leverage those 14 Worker turns into founding a future city or two a turn faster. Should be possible as you'll have up to 4 extra tiles roaded, but you may have been able to keep ahead in that department anyways.

	14-03-2004 13:38									#47
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Now, another idea: go with warrior-worker-granary but have the second worker do a chop to avoid slowing down our growth waiting for the granary to finish. We'll have to mine a plains (or we might end up with a bonus grassland under the forest that would be even better to mine) to get back the production potential that the chop costs us, but a sixteen-turn head start for the second worker is long enough to do a chop, build a mine, and still come out a few turns ahead.

The first sixteen turns are the same as above.

1: Worker move 4. Settler move 8.
2: Worker move 8. Settler build city (now at 0:0 food/production). Start work on warrior; laborer to sugar.
3: 3:2 Worker 1 Irrigate Desert. City has opened up an irrigation path..
4: 6:4
5: 9:6
6: 12:8
7: 15:0 Warrior is done. Start worker. Irrigation is done. Move worker to oasis. Move laborer to forest.
8: 17:3 Labrer to Sugar. Worker starts irrigating oasis.
9: Size 2 0:7 Laborers to Sugar, forest. (This appears wasteful in that it sacrifices food for a shield we don't need, but it gives us an extra gold and the waste won't matter.)
10: Size 1: 2:0 Worker 2 complete. Moves to sugar. Laborer to sugar.
11: 5:2 Worker 2 starts mining.
12: 8:4 Borders expand. Irrigation of oasis is completed; start road. Laborer works oasis.
13: 12:6
14: 16:8
15: Size 2: 0:12: Road on oasis completed. Worker 1 to irrigated desert. Laborers to oasis and sugar.
16: 4:15: Worker 1 Starts road.

Now we start getting different.

17: 8:19: Worker 2 finished mining, moves to forest. (We'll road the forest tile after chopping and then road and mine our second bonus grassland, so we can get by okay without roading the sugar. Under Despotism, except in a GA, a road there wouldn't give us any extra gold.)

18: 12:23: Worker 2 starts chop.
19: 16:27: Worker 1 completes road, moves to river BG.
20: Size 3: 0:33: Laborers to oasis, sugar, and river BG. Worker 1 starts mine.
21: 4:38
22: 8:53: Worker 2 finishes chop, starts road (or a mine if this is a BG, but from here on, I'm going to assume we aren't that lucky).
23: 12:58
24: 16:0: Granary complete. Start settler.
25: Size 4: 0:6: Worker 2 finishes road, moves to second BG. Laborers work oasis, sugar, river BG, and newly roaded river tile. (Assuming the forest didn't have a BG under it, there's no way we can get our settler in three more turns, so we may as well get as much gold as possible building it in four more. Finishing our BG mine will provide the shields we need.)
26: 4:12: Worker 1 finishes mine, starts road. Worker 2 starts road.
27: 8:18
28: Size 5: 0:25: Laborers work oasis, sugar, river BG, river road, and irrigated desert.
29: Size 3: 4:0: Settler complete. Laborers to oasis, sugar, and river BG. Worker 1 completes road; further actions depend on what our exploring warrior found out. Worker 2 completes road and can either start a mine or move to a tile that would be better to work from another city's perspective.
30: 8:6
31: Size 4: 0:13: Laborers to oasis, sugar, river BG, and river road. (Unless we have a BG under the forest, we can't quite shave a turn off the time needed for our settler, so again, we go for extra gold.)
32: 4:19
33: 8:25
34: Size 3: 0:0: Settler complete.

If we would get lucky and find a bonus grassland under the forest, a variation of this approach would finish the first two settlers at exactly the same time as my first approach but with a little bit more work done on tile improvements. Assuming we don't get that lucky (which is the assumption I followed in plotting out the timeline), the situation is more complex. Our second settler is finished a turn later than in my first timeline, but our first settler could gain one turn if he settles toward the east or our second might be able to gain two from our having extra roaded tiles(depending on exactly where he wants to go). Thus, we would probably be in the same or a better position in terms of when our second and third cities are founded, and in a little bit better and significantly more flexible position in terms of tile improvements (since we have the option of focusing on tiles for other cities instead of on replacing the chopped forest with a mined plains). We would be six shields behind on production in our capital (probably affecting future settlers), but in the same place on our growth curve. Also, the time spent working a roaded river tile would put us a bit ahead on wealth/science.

Considering the mixture of advantages and disadvantages if we don't get a bonus grassland under the forest coupled with the fact that we get purely advantages if we do get lucky, my current inclination is that this is probably the best approach of the three I've experimented with so far. But the matter is probably worth further thought.

	14-03-2004 13:45									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Nice work getting the Worker into there with so little tradeoff. It's close either way. The benefit of those 14 Worker turns will mostly show up for the second and third cities. You could expect to make up the production (and more, probably account for ~14 shields/commerce), but if there aren't any tiles to Irrigate you may never catch up on the food side of things unless you can leverage those 14 Worker turns into founding a future city or two a turn faster. Should be possible as you'll have up to 4 extra tiles roaded, but you may have been able to keep ahead in that department anyways.

With the extra worker turns, it should be possible to defer building a third worker longer than would make sense otherwise and to either build another settler or start a granary in the time when the third worker would have been built. Getting either a settler or a granary (and its subsequent workers and settlers) earlier as a result of that would tend to counteract the initial food disadvantage even in the absence of a tile that can be irrigated to go up to three or more food under Despotism.

	15-03-2004 18:10									#49
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I thought despotism ate the food bonus from irrigated oasis (and sugar)!

-Arrian

	15-03-2004 18:16									#50
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Irrigated Desert gives 2 food for agricultural.
Oasis gives +2 food.
So in Despotism, you get 3 food from irrigated oasis.

You're right about sugar on plains though.

	15-03-2004 18:30									#51
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So irrigating Oasis works in despotism for Agricultural civs only, then, right?

If so, ok, I can see where I went wrong: the first time I irrigated an oasis, I did so as a non-agricultural civ.

-Arrian

	15-03-2004 19:30									#52
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Correct. Irrigating an oasis provides an advantage under Despotism only for agricultural civs.

	15-03-2004 19:44									#53
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* Arrian has learned something from this thread.

	15-03-2004 20:27									#54
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It's a tribute to Apolyton University that the learning can start even before the games do.

	15-03-2004 20:32									#55
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Incidentally, one of the interesting questions raised by this game is what research path to take. Since the Celts don't start with Alphabet, a beeline to Philosophy is a bit longer than it was last time, while starting with Ceremonial Burial makes the path to Monarchy shorter. The fact that the Celts are Religious also makes the possibility of going to Monarchy first and then Republic later more attractive than it would be otherwise.

I'm seriously considering researching Mysticism and Polytheism as quickly as possible and then Monarchy on a 50-turn pace to get gold for upgrades. But I haven't decided for sure yet. Thoughts, anyone?

	15-03-2004 20:39									#56
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It might work, but I think it only works if you're not alone. In fact, having several neighbors would be good, since that upgrade cash is going to become rushbuilding cash if you haven't anyone to beat on.

I bet you will have a couple of AI neighbors to beat on, though, especially with that nice central minimap position.

90g per upgrade does make the cash hoarding approach attractive.

-Arrian

	15-03-2004 20:40									#57
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On the other hand, getting a whole tech free from Philo is also very attractive. Assuming you play Emperor (your normal level, yes?), I bet you can beat the AI to Philo even without Alphabet to start.

Tough call. Builder vs. Warmonger. The Celts happen to be a pretty good civ for both approaches.

Cool. Strategic choice.

-Arrian

edit: and Nathan, what if you don't have iron? This is Conquests, after all.

	15-03-2004 20:53									#58
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See next post.

Last edited by alexman on 15-03-2004 at 21:01

	15-03-2004 20:56									#59
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Religious with a good ancient UU screams for Monarchy. It's going to be my first government for sure.

I plan to slow down the tech rate so that the Gallic Swords last as long as possible. However, I plan to research full-speed up to Monarchy, and then set the slider at 0% until the middle ages. I'll trade as little as possible, and if I'm not at war, I'll make sure other civs on my continent are at war. We will be the most backwards barbarian continent ever!

	16-03-2004 02:48									#60
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quote: Originally posted by alexman I plan to slow down the tech rate so that the Gallic Swords last as long as possible.

i think i saw someone use this strategy at CFC (or was it in an old AU game?). that player got rid of all scientific civs before they got to the medieval age (therefor having a chance of getting feudalism and pikemen, making the GS a lot less effective). iirc, he won the game before the AI was in the medieval ages.