19-03-2004 12:29									#31
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quote: Originally posted by smellymummy If my first start doesnt have a cow or wheat, I could just easily say restart. Everyone in a single game could. it can make for lots of potential restarts, and lots of time being wasted I just think it would be a shame to have to allow delaying playing because one or more players wants to use the games randomness to get an edge over the other players.

Only one restart per player per game. The restart itself would not count as a new game. _If_ everyone happened to use their restart in the same game, it would be the equivalent of 2 extra turns per game, not really a factor considering the length of a total game (200-500 turns).

No desert islands here, just 4 tribes crammed on the same tiny continent. Your neighbors' warriors will be wandering around your porch probably before you can found your third city, maybe even before a second with poor land.

Having a single chance to restart would make each player decide: is this bad enough to risk getting stuck (most likely for good) with something even worse next time?

	19-03-2004 13:14									#32
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Can I play too?

I think so... You need Civilization3 and the Conquests expansion pack, along with an internet connection.

quote: I like the idea of an AU MP mod for this.

The plan is to start the first round once we have 16 players and the 1.20 patch. Would it be a good idea to put a mod together in time for that? If not, my thought was to work on a mod on the side and have it ready for the the championship game.

Would we use another mod (MPTournament.biq or the first AU MP one) as a starting point? I haven't looked at the AU mod for PtW MP, just seen it mentioned in a few turn tracking threads. Could one of our AU gurus supply a link or a summary of how the process went?

I was looking over the 1.20 thread and noticed the new MPT mod forces 40% ocean?!? This would make for too much land for 4 players on a tiny pangea map wouldn't it?

	19-03-2004 19:01									#33
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MPTournament.biq seems like a good idea, at least for the first round.

Because of the big time investment of a PBEM game, and because the rules are stored in the save game, we don't want to experiment with an AU mod that has not been extensively play tested. We can certainly start playing around with an AU MP mod for the next round, or next tournament.

I think the lower percentage of ocean in the MP bic is because more land makes it more likely to get even starts - nobody gets stuck on a narrow peninsula. Of course, the best solution is to have somebody look at the map and make sure the positions are relatively even before each game starts. Also, some like more land to be able to expand a bit before fighting begins.

	19-03-2004 23:11									#34
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Thanks for the invite Rommel2D

I'll join with pleasure, as long as patch 1.20 is used, and it really has the advertised PBEM load fixes in it.

Proposed rules sound OK to me.

	20-03-2004 23:43									#35
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Also, some like more land to be able to expand a bit before fighting begins.

Sir Ralph was all about tiny maps with 70% ocean for four players, but I don't remember if he gave any reasons for it. This wouldn't be a corruption thing, would it?

I think more land and expansion for the players would prolong the game, something we should try to avoid in the first round at least. Tiny and 70% seems to be working well in game 1 of the first tournament. Is anyone having a different experience?

Another option would be to use elimination mode for first round games...

	22-03-2004 08:24									#36
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If anyone has scheduling information (primary availability times or normal sleep hours or time at work without access) they want me to consider when making up the groups, post it here or PM me. I'll assume midnight-6AM local time as "down time", and 3PM-midnight as primary availability time unless otherwise stated, and try to get as much schedule overlap as possible in the final groupings.

[edit: I don't want to make this seem more complicated than it is.]

Last edited by Rommel2D on 22-03-2004 at 11:01

	22-03-2004 08:48									#37
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I'm in Korea. Oops! That's +9 GMT.

	22-03-2004 08:49									#38
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Please count me out; I'm not sure I have the time for another PBEM commitment. Sorry.

Have fun!


Dominae

	22-03-2004 10:43									#39
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Sorry to hear that. Thing are going to be a little dull here until the patch is released, but it will definitely pick up after that! For now, I'm trying to figure out how to address the issue of a possible mod and in-game rules/ettiquette, if at all.

Could I change your mind by revealing that the eventual winner will receive a Free Lunch?

	22-03-2004 10:52									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D Could I change your mind by revealing that the eventual winner will receive a Free Lunch?

Heh-heh, nice catch. All I can say is: TANSTAAFL!

	22-03-2004 11:34									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D Sir Ralph was all about tiny maps with 70% ocean for four players, but I don't remember if he gave any reasons for it. This wouldn't be a corruption thing, would it?

Corruption (the extra cities would be near useless) and the fact, that the game setup phase ("REX") should be accelerated for the sake of some "action". I played in games with abundant space and their medieval age (the most exciting IMO) was deadly boring, because the players were still busy REXing.

	28-03-2004 02:29									#42
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Well said Masuro

	30-03-2004 12:33									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot Well said Masuro

Are you referring to the 'restart' post or the "oops" post? ;-)

I've seen a few 'no restarts', some inklings about maps previewed for balance, and some thumbs up for the single restart option. Does anyone feel strongly enough about this one way or the other that we should call for a vote on it? Otherwise I'll just go with what we have for rules now.

Unless Jesse is setting up the most evil April Fools joke ever, the patch will be out this week. I'll do some more active recruiting to fill out the rest of the slots before the weekend. I'll also compile links to some past threads on PBEM ettiquette and exploits for reference before the games start.

Let's get this iron horse rolling...

	30-03-2004 12:50									#44
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I vote for no restarts but I won't mind if we do start over.

	31-03-2004 12:01									#45
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quote: * MPTournament: Tiny & Small maps can be played with 8 players * MPTournament: Map sets Oceans to 40% * MPTournament: Map Trading moved back to Map Making * MPTournament: Enkidu cost raised to 15 * MPTournament: Ancient Cavalry defense lowered from 2 to 1 * MPTournament: Captured cities retain culture * MPTournament: Turn slices lowered from 24(base)/3(per-city)/1(per-unit) to 16/2/1 * MPTournament: Scientific Leaders disabled

These are the supposed additions to the new patch for the MPTournament.biq. I have no idea if there are any such modifications in the current version (alexman, have you had a chance to scan through it?).

Does anyone find any of these controversial? The only one that I'm wondering about is the 40% ocean setting. This being Conquests, there are ways to deal with excessive corruption, but the extended building (REXing) period and larger empires would be nice to avoid for the first round games, I think.

	31-03-2004 12:04									#46
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my vote: no restarts

	31-03-2004 12:54									#47
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Its nice to have some guidelines for ettiquette and exploits. There are some unenforcable rules for PBEM that make for a better experience if everyone is aware of and adheres to them. This thread will take you to a couple discussions on the topics. Please bump them or post here if you have any comments.

	31-03-2004 13:09									#48
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they all look good to me

word is the new patch will be here in the coming week

	07-04-2004 12:52									#49
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How about this game, now that 1.22 is out ?

	08-04-2004 09:45									#50
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Once again Sir Ralph proved to be prescient- he originally warned me to allow for a month after the patch's release before starting this tournament. Well, it took Firaxis that whole month to release the patch in the first place, and I'm not even sure if the fallout from 1.22 has subsided enough yet.

I've done some testing and it looks like the 40% ocean feature of the MPTournament.biq feature doesn't work. Either that, or I'm going about map generation wrong. Alexman, have you had a chance to check this file out at all?

Other than this, is everyone here still interested and set to go with 1.22? My passive advertising isn't generating any more hoop-la for this tournament, so we need to do something to pull in at least six more contestants. I might have a nice surprise in store if we can get the critical mass needed to start...

	08-04-2004 10:59									#51
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the 1.22 patch is fine with me.

and what's the nice surprise?

	08-04-2004 13:24									#52
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Gents, I'm keen to give this a crack.

I'm GMT time and away this Easter weekend with a week or two away In July-August.

	08-04-2004 18:56									#53
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Yep, still keen to go.

	08-04-2004 19:00									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D I've done some testing and it looks like the 40% ocean feature of the MPTournament.biq feature doesn't work. Either that, or I'm going about map generation wrong. Alexman, have you had a chance to check this file out at all?

The 40% Ocean in MPTournament.biq is a feature that many dislike because it gives too much land. Here's an example of a complaint.

Also, you're right that the MPTournament.biq seems to have been designed for fast online games in mind, not for PBEM. They moved maps back to Map Making, for example, because no online games apparently reach Navigation. The also have changed units (the Enkidu) that are good for rushes, but in PBEM you have the time to do more diplomacy, so rushes are not as powerful anyway. Overall, I'm not too keen on the idea of using the MPTournament.biq any more. Let's just play stock rules.

We do need to set some house rules, however. What exploits are allowed? For example, is it allowed to pillage and road in the same turn so that you and your ally effectively benefit from the same resource? Are you allowed to send screenshots before you can trade maps in the game? Can you contact each other before you have met in the game? Do you have to have an in-game alliance to both attack someone else? Are you allowed to discuss with others your research plans, so that you don't research the same tech? Can you change your citizens around during your build phase to work powerful tiles twice in the same turn? I'm sure there are other such things...

	08-04-2004 22:34									#55
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how can you work tiles twice in a same turn?

	08-04-2004 22:44									#56
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It's a terrible exploit for those with lots of time to micromanage. And in PBEM, you have lots of time to do this sort of thing.

	09-04-2004 11:10									#57
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Mickeyj added, back up to 11

	09-04-2004 12:17									#58
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Thanks for the links, I don't have time to get over to CFC very often...

quote: Originally posted by alexman The 40% Ocean in MPTournament.biq is a feature that many dislike because it gives too much land. Here's an example of a complaint.

That's not much of a complaint. I've come to agree with your earlier point that 40% ocean would reduce the possibility of bad starting positions on a random map. Of course this wouldn't apply to archipeligos, but it would for continents and especially pangeas. Unfortunately, for just 4 players it would create a rather large land mass, so I am reluctant to use it here, also.

quote: We do need to set some house rules, however. What exploits are allowed? [...] Can you change your citizens around during your build phase to work powerful tiles twice in the same turn? I'm sure there are other such things...

I've always thought you should put the "disable city scroll arrows during production phase" in 100-pt. flashing pink text in your simple fix thread. After the PBEM load bug, this seems to be the most rediculous exploit in the game. Beyond the tile MM trick, you can manage citizen moods after loss of luxuries and other shady things too, right?

I don't remember where this was suggested (one of the strat forum PBEMs?), but I like the idea of working within the mechanics of the program's diplomacy- no communication until contact, no alliances until an embassy is established, no screen shots (or precise verbal descriptions of the map) unitil map trading.

Coordinated research is more of a grey area. I'd rather play without it, but it seems ubiquitous in most games.

Any volunteers to attempt to locate or compile an exhaustive list of exploits to give everyone a chance to agree to avoid them before starting?

	10-04-2004 13:47									#59
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If there is still space, I would love to play - not been at all satisfied with the online Civ experience so far.. Read Rommel's first post and it was almost as if he had read my mind..

I am in GMT, and should have no issues with the time element. I have also been on my holidays already this year, so nothing now till Christmas (yikes!)

	10-04-2004 23:07									#60
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Moonbars's entry makes for 12 out of 16 players.

Last edited by Rommel2D on 11-04-2004 at 05:42