22-03-2004 00:28									#31
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Here are the designer notes by Keith Baker, the original creator of Eberron:

http://www.coveworld.net/eberron/designer_notes.html

What he has to say about tech:

quote: People are saying "It's Shadowrun!" It's not. "It's steampunk!" It's not. Looking back, I do wish that we hadn't shown the lightning rail in [Across Eberron], just because everyone latched onto that as if it was the center of the world. If you look at all the art that's been shown, you'll see that the lightning rail is an unusual element of the world and not an example of the general tone. Despite the presence of airships and what appears to be a train, there is little similarity between Eberron and [steampunk PC game] Arcanum. Unlike Final Fantasy, which I have never played, I do own Arcanum and enjoyed playing it. However, one of the central themes of that game was the conflict between technology and magic; as Eberron does not use technology [that involves electricity, gunpowder or steam power] there is no such conflict.

	22-03-2004 00:41									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Personally, "technology powered by magic" is an oxymoron. Magic is something people don't understand. Once it's understood, it ceases to be magic.

You don't neccisarily have to understand it to harness it.

	22-03-2004 01:36									#33
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They're talking about "working class wizards" who slave all day to enchant household items for a minimum wage.

Not that I'm laughing at them

-Jam

	22-03-2004 07:38									#34
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd You don't neccisarily have to understand it to harness it.

While that's true, I can't find a parallel in human history. No forms of energy had been harnessed on a large scale before we first understood how it works.

	22-03-2004 07:39									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski They're talking about "working class wizards" who slave all day to enchant household items for a minimum wage. Not that I'm laughing at them

Now that's funny.

	22-03-2004 07:55									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger While that's true, I can't find a parallel in human history. No forms of energy had been harnessed on a large scale before we first understood how it works.

What about the most important source of energy - fire? Not that human history matters when talking about the practical uses of magic in an alternative reality, anyways.



I could see "harnessing it but not understanding it" making for a really great fantasy setting. Lot's of potential for mad-scientist types, experiments run amock, and really unusual/imaginative applications.

	22-03-2004 08:06									#37
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd What about the most important source of energy - fire? Not that human history matters when talking about the practical uses of magic in an alternative reality, anyways.

Yes, fire had been in use for a very long time, but there was no large scale use of it until pretty recent times. What I mean by "large scale" is the scale of the fire, in this case. Fire had been in very widespread use, but each fire had been rather small.

See, I actually thought about these things

quote: Originally posted by General Ludd I could see "harnessing it but not understanding it" making for a really great fantasy setting. Lot's of potential for mad-scientist types, experiments run amock, and really unusual/imaginative applications.

I don't see you can really harness something until you bring in a systemetic method of studying, building, and controlling. IOW, engineering. But there's no engineering before there's science.

At any rate, the fun thing about Shadowrun etc. is the conflict and tension between technology and magic. IOW, you are not limited to one or the other - both path works, each with its own strength and limitations.

	22-03-2004 08:45									#38
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A related issue is metalurgy.

Steel (and it's creation) has been in use for centuries. While it was known that doing certain things to iron produced steel, it wasn't known until recently what turns iron into steel.

Just as mixing tin and copper produced bronze, only now do we understand why bronze is harder than tin or copper.

Understanding is not really needed for utilization. A stone age hunter could use a rifle just as easily as a modern soldier at least until it ran out of ammunition.

	22-03-2004 09:00									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger While that's true, I can't find a parallel in human history. No forms of energy had been harnessed on a large scale before we first understood how it works.

Can you say Hydrogen bomb?

ACK!

	22-03-2004 16:46									#40
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quote: I don't see you can really harness something until you bring in a systemetic method of studying, building, and controlling. IOW, engineering. But there's no engineering before there's science.

The point is, magic does all of that by itself.

A wizard can observe the effects of a spell, and it's reactions to an environemnt, and get the idea of combinign them. A storm trapped in a box to use as a washer (as Jamski mentioned) is a perfect example.

	22-03-2004 17:12									#41
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There are some artifacts like this already in the FR setting :

Bags of Holding, for example. Imagine if everyone had one of these to go shopping, it would be so practical. And at home I'd want a Cupboard of Holding too. And a permanant tiny portal to the plane of fire as a heating element, the spell "Light" enchanted on a item with unlimited charges, instead of using candles.

Its not really "technology" but its using magic in everyday ways to get the job done better/faster/less effort, so it fills the same rolé as technology does in our world.

-Jam

	22-03-2004 19:07									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski There are some artifacts like this already in the FR setting : Bags of Holding, for example. Imagine if everyone had one of these to go shopping, it would be so practical. And at home I'd want a Cupboard of Holding too. And a permanant tiny portal to the plane of fire as a heating element, the spell "Light" enchanted on a item with unlimited charges, instead of using candles. Its not really "technology" but its using magic in everyday ways to get the job done better/faster/less effort, so it fills the same rolé as technology does in our world. -Jam

Why not the spell "Continual Light"? Or is the gone in 3rd Edition?

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	22-03-2004 19:44									#43
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Because I want to turn it off so I can sleep

-Jam

	22-03-2004 19:47									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Because I want to turn it off so I can sleep -Jam

Put a cloth over the light.

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	22-03-2004 19:52									#45
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quote: I could see "harnessing it but not understanding it" making for a really great fantasy setting. Lot's of potential for mad-scientist types, experiments run amock, and really unusual/imaginative applications.

Reminds me alot of the discworld, now that I think about it.

	22-03-2004 20:20									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski BTW, is that you that posts on there sometimes Grumbold?

I am lurking just about everywhere that strategy and RPG games get discussed

	22-03-2004 20:28									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger While that's true, I can't find a parallel in human history. No forms of energy had been harnessed on a large scale before we first understood how it works.

Not on massive scale, but there have been cities with natural gas lamps or natural hot springs for baths. The Greeks discovered and then lost naptha. Archimedes invented many devices. Some so poorly understood that despite their description in accounts of the siege of Syracuse they have never been recreated.

In a fantasy world of poor written records and no international co-operation its quite understandable to have one faction with technology that another faction would percieve as spiritual or magical in origin.

	22-03-2004 20:42									#48
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quote: I am lurking just about everywhere that strategy and RPG games get discussed

I thought I recognised the name, and the style was very much yours

-Jam

	23-03-2004 09:59									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Can you say Hydrogen bomb?

Both the atomic bomb and hydrogen bomb were based on Relativity, published in 1905.

	23-03-2004 10:04									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Bags of Holding, for example. Imagine if everyone had one of these to go shopping, it would be so practical. And at home I'd want a Cupboard of Holding too. And a permanant tiny portal to the plane of fire as a heating element, the spell "Light" enchanted on a item with unlimited charges, instead of using candles. Its not really "technology" but its using magic in everyday ways to get the job done better/faster/less effort, so it fills the same rolé as technology does in our world.

I don't deny this.

You can't have a rail system, say, without finding out how things work first. You simply can't power the trains, sychronise the dispatches, and so forth.

	23-03-2004 10:06									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger At any rate, the fun thing about Shadowrun etc. is the conflict and tension between technology and magic. IOW, you are not limited to one or the other - both path works, each with its own strength and limitations.

I still find this more interesting than having everything run on magic.

	23-03-2004 10:08									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I don't deny this. You can't have a rail system, say, without finding out how things work first. You simply can't power the trains, sychronise the dispatches, and so forth.

It's possible to be able to predict something without understanding it. Gravity has been predictable since Newton, but even today it's still not completely understood.

But it's a silly argument to begin with, and I'll just leave it at that.

	23-03-2004 12:54									#53
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quote: You can't have a rail system, say, without finding out how things work first. You simply can't power the trains, sychronise the dispatches, and so forth.

Of course you can.

The train is made from steel/wood/whatever, shaped by magic. Then its made to fly. Then imprisoned air elementals are forced to push it through the air in a straight line. Then you fly it between 2 towns every day and take 5 gold coins a trip.

Another wizard sees how much you're making and does the same...

You don't need the technological knowledge if you have the magical skills.

-Jam

	23-03-2004 16:18									#54
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Its doesn't need to be explained, its "magic."

	30-03-2004 02:54									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski They're talking about "working class wizards" who slave all day to enchant household items for a minimum wage. Not that I'm laughing at them -Jam

Can anyone say house elves?

	30-03-2004 03:27									#56
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I'm all for different settings and all that.

But not a rpg?

RPG's seem to be hurting a little bit now. Sure we had Morrowind recently (which I have mixed feelings about). And Neverwinter Nights may be finished for expansions (although there is talk of releasing more content on a pay for content service, but it's still the same game). No Fallout 3.

Foreign companies may have to pick up the slack. As a french company did with Arx Fatalis. I still haven't picked up this game yet, but I've heard good things. I didn't see this game at Best Buy, so I couldn't get it. I may have to go back to Fry's to get it.

Although there is supposed to be a new Ultima game coming out I think. I admit I have not played an Ultima game since Ultima IV. So I'm not that familiar with them.

And mmorpg's. *yawn*

	30-03-2004 03:40									#57
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Well, there's been hints of making another NWN expansion, since the last one sold so massively (sold much better than C3C ) so if that is as good as or better than HotU, then there'll be something there. And there's some gossip about the rights for Jefferson being sold to someone (since the game was 90% finished and a sure fire seller)

We need not fear too much.

-Jam

	30-03-2004 03:41									#58
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i was trying to hint that techonology powered by magic sounds very Harry Potterish.

	30-03-2004 03:42									#59
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Not really. Magic is really secret in the Harry Potter world. Imagine everyone had magic flying cars and it was perfectly normal...

-Jam

	30-03-2004 03:45									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Not really. Magic is really secret in the Harry Potter world. Imagine everyone had magic flying cars and it was perfectly normal... -Jam

Ok, Harry Potter with no muggles.

POTM and i recently had a discussion of why Hogwarts has no elevators but the Ministry of Magic DOES have them (magical elevators, I guess)