26-03-2004 03:02									#211
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH such as? Lets just stoke the fires a little (and yes I'm serious)

Being caught with thier pants down wrt nuke testing by India and Pakistan.

	26-03-2004 03:05									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Che. If Bush does get re-elected fairly will you take it as evidence that democracy is dead and that it's time for armed revolt.

So if someone you dislike is elected to a position you think they shouldn't hold, you believe that it is time to wage war on the populace that elected him? And you're the one mourning the death of democracy?

	26-03-2004 03:07									#213
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Its only democracy if he says it is.

	26-03-2004 03:14									#214
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I dont have time to read it in depth just now. Just skim reading, I've spotted enough outright lies in the text to figure which way it goes though.

Hey. like when I read the Boortz piece-only Blumenthal's piece is better writen and seemingly researched as well.

	26-03-2004 03:14									#215
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc So if someone you dislike is elected to a position you think they shouldn't hold, you believe that it is time to wage war on the populace that elected him? And you're the one mourning the death of democracy?

Don't misrepresent me. If this corrupt, lying, incompetent bunch get re-elected, then it would show that democracy doesn't work.

The facts are that they are bent, are liars, and are incompetent. That much is obvious.

	26-03-2004 03:19									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Don't misrepresent me.

I'm not misrepresenting you or your views. That's exactly what you said.

	26-03-2004 03:21									#217
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Hey. like when I read the Boortz piece-only Blumenthal's piece is better writen and seemingly researched as well.

In fairness Boortz doesn't represent himself as a serious journalist more of an entertainer with salient insight.

Besides he pwns Blumenthal.

	26-03-2004 03:24									#218
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:yawn:

	26-03-2004 03:25									#219
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You guys are a joke. You lost this debate a long time ago. The lefties have been proved right time and time again, and yet you still bleat on as if nothing has happened.

Do you live in a cave or something?

	26-03-2004 03:26									#220
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Nope in a Democracy where we get to express our oh so correct opinion.

	26-03-2004 03:27									#221
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Agathon doesn't believe in democracy.

	26-03-2004 03:52									#222
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Not if it doesn't work. Look at the Bush record.

1. A completely irresponsible fiscal policy. It's customary that if you are going to cut taxes, that you make sure that you cut spending or find some other way to pay for it - rather than just sitting with a finger up your arse hoping it will work itself out.

2. A war based on lies that has cost the US most of its "soft power" (badly needed to fight terrorism) and mired it in a farcical situation in Iraq.

3. An idiotic and pugnacious unilateralist policy with regard to things like Kyoto and the Landmine treaty when a softer approach would probably have been better for the US in the long term (another "soft power" issue). There are ways and means to get your own way that are less damaging than riding into down firing off a pair of six shooters.

4. Pointless and irresponsible public threats issued against North Korea and Iran, which appear to have served no useful purpose other than to antagonize those regimes and other affected parties.

5. A lassez-faire attitude towards the Israel/Palestine conflict, which is the most inflammatory issue w/regard to the causes of terrorism. Bush has made Clinton's spotty record in this area look like the work of a Metternich or a Castlereagh.

6. The worst job creation record in US history allied with a belated and weak response to an egregious corporate crime spree.

7. All you former friends (except Israel) hate you.

It's like some terrible cartoon for God's sake.

You don't have to be a radical communist to object to this, as rumblings from traditional conservatives show. Look, I didn't like Bush senior, but I respected him as a politician and a diplomat - same goes for Clinton. But this lot are irresponsible and incompetent. I remember watching Bush senior address the world before Gulf War I. In my opinion that was largely a BS war, but I could not but help admire the skill and patience with which Bush rallied people to his cause. Junior's idea is to throw a tantrum if other countries disagree.

After GWI Bush could visit any number of Western countries and receive a warm welcome. Clinton was idolized when he came to NZ. Bush can't come to Canada because half the country would turn out to boo him and his last visit to Britain was a stage managed farce.

	26-03-2004 05:24									#223
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Being caught with thier pants down wrt nuke testing by India and Pakistan.

Sorry, I dont know what you're referring to.

	26-03-2004 05:38									#224
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Hey. like when I read the Boortz piece-only Blumenthal's piece is better writen and seemingly researched as well.

I havent read the Boortz piece. In a place far far away and a time long gone I learned that if a pundit said the sky was blue I'd go outside to take a look. No one is more cynical on these issues than I.

MY wife wants this PC so I dont have time to blitz the Blumenthal piece now :whipped:

	26-03-2004 06:49									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Not if it doesn't work. Look at the Bush record. 1. A completely irresponsible fiscal policy. It's customary that if you are going to cut taxes, that you make sure that you cut spending or find some other way to pay for it - rather than just sitting with a finger up your arse hoping it will work itself out. 2. A war based on lies that has cost the US most of its "soft power" (badly needed to fight terrorism) and mired it in a farcical situation in Iraq. 3. An idiotic and pugnacious unilateralist policy with regard to things like Kyoto and the Landmine treaty when a softer approach would probably have been better for the US in the long term (another "soft power" issue). There are ways and means to get your own way that are less damaging than riding into down firing off a pair of six shooters. 4. Pointless and irresponsible public threats issued against North Korea and Iran, which appear to have served no useful purpose other than to antagonize those regimes and other affected parties. 5. A lassez-faire attitude towards the Israel/Palestine conflict, which is the most inflammatory issue w/regard to the causes of terrorism. Bush has made Clinton's spotty record in this area look like the work of a Metternich or a Castlereagh. 6. The worst job creation record in US history allied with a belated and weak response to an egregious corporate crime spree. 7. All you former friends (except Israel) hate you. It's like some terrible cartoon for God's sake. You don't have to be a radical communist to object to this, as rumblings from traditional conservatives show. Look, I didn't like Bush senior, but I respected him as a politician and a diplomat - same goes for Clinton. But this lot are irresponsible and incompetent. I remember watching Bush senior address the world before Gulf War I. In my opinion that was largely a BS war, but I could not but help admire the skill and patience with which Bush rallied people to his cause. Junior's idea is to throw a tantrum if other countries disagree. After GWI Bush could visit any number of Western countries and receive a warm welcome. Clinton was idolized when he came to NZ. Bush can't come to Canada because half the country would turn out to boo him and his last visit to Britain was a stage managed farce.

P-r-o-v-e I-t. For once prove what you are saying, this typical bullshit won't cut it.

	26-03-2004 06:55									#226
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Ah, the scent of irony is thick in the proverbial air.

	26-03-2004 07:19									#227
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I expected this from Fez, but some of the rest of you conservatives, I'm actually suprized at.

	26-03-2004 07:22									#228
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I want to see Richard Clarke in jail for perjury, that is all.

	26-03-2004 07:24									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Giancarlo: Hypothetical situation... what would you do if Kerry wins?

That's incredibly hypothetical and not even .5% likely.

	26-03-2004 07:24									#230
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Excellent analysis from Kaplan:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2097685/

quote: I have no doubt that Richard Clarke, the former National Security Council official who has launched a broadside against President Bush's counterterrorism policies, is telling the truth about every single charge. There are three reasons for this confidence. First, his basic accusations are consistent with tales told by other officials, including some who had no significant dealings with Clarke. Second, the White House's attempts at rebuttal have been extremely weak and contradictory. If Clarke were wrong, one would expect the comebacks—especially from Bush's aides, who excel at the counterstrike—to be stronger and more substantive. Continue Article Third, I went to graduate school with Clarke in the late 1970s, at MIT's political science department, and called him as an occasional source in the mid-'80s when he was in the State Department and I was a newspaper reporter. There were good things and dubious things about Clarke, traits that inspired both admiration and leeriness. The former: He was very smart, a highly skilled (and utterly nonpartisan) analyst, and he knew how to get things done in a calcified bureaucracy. The latter: He was arrogant, made no effort to disguise his contempt for those who disagreed with him, and blatantly maneuvered around all obstacles to make sure his views got through. The key thing, though, is this: Both sets of traits tell me he's too shrewd to write or say anything in public that might be decisively refuted. As Daniel Benjamin, another terrorism specialist who worked alongside Clarke in the Clinton White House, put it in a phone conversation today, "Dick did not survive and flourish in the bureaucracy all those years by leaving himself open to attack." Clarke did suffer one setback in his 30-year career in high office, though he doesn't mention it in his book. James Baker, the first President Bush's secretary of state, fired Clarke from his position as director of the department's politico-military bureau. (Bush's NSC director, Brent Scowcroft, hired him almost instantly.) I doubt we'll be hearing from Baker on this episode: He fired Clarke for being too close to Israel—not a point the Bush family's political savior is likely to make in an election season. (For details on this unwritten chapter and on why Clarke hasn't talked to me for over 15 years, click here.)

	26-03-2004 07:25									#231
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How is he telling the truth when evidence points to the contradictions in his testimony? Something tells me that article is full of bullshit.

	26-03-2004 07:27									#232
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What evidence?

	26-03-2004 07:31									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo What evidence?

Do you even bother looking at any of the articles the conservatives post here?

	26-03-2004 07:36									#234
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Link a few of 'em. I'll read 'em and tell you what I honestly think. I don't doubt there are smart conservatives, here and out there, and maybe they're right about Clarke -- I just haven't heard their case.

Wanna throw some articles my way?

	26-03-2004 07:37									#235
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quote: Originally posted by rev Link a few of 'em. I'll read 'em and tell you what I honestly think. I don't doubt there are smart conservatives, here and out there, and maybe they're right about Clarke -- I just haven't heard their case. Wanna throw some articles my way?

Look through the pages of this thread. I am not going through 8 pages right now.

	26-03-2004 07:38									#236
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quote: So if someone you dislike is elected to a position you think they shouldn't hold, you believe that it is time to wage war on the populace that elected him? And you're the one mourning the death of democracy?

Ouch!

quote: Agathon doesn't believe in democracy.

Me neither, just took Aggie a bit longer to see the truth.

Agathon -

quote: Not if it doesn't work.

Aren't you a communist?

	26-03-2004 07:40									#237
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You mean the Boortz article? As has been pointed out, he was working for the Bush Administration. If he were critical, he'd get fired.

	26-03-2004 08:25									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo P-r-o-v-e I-t. For once prove what you are saying, this typical bullshit won't cut it.

Try watching the news for a change.

	26-03-2004 08:46									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Try watching the news for a change.

TheLeftWingBullshitSite doesn't count as news.

	26-03-2004 10:14									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Fez You guys are a joke. You lost this debate a long time ago. The righties have been proved right time and time again, and yet you still bleat on as if nothing has happened. Do you live in a cave or something?