26-03-2004 23:29									#61
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quote: last time I heard, Bush said prior to the war that the US was willing to go at it all alone...has that changed? If not, why should other states not keep Bush to his words?

Because Bush and Australia/Spain are playing politics with Iraqis and their government. So the blood is now on their hands if something happens.

	26-03-2004 23:38									#62
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Yes, and where is the money pumped in? Not for the common Iraqi I think.

If I may interject a few pertinent first hand observations. Most of the reconstruction money is going for things like power plants, schools, police academies & building police forces, roads, power lines, the Iraqi Civil Defense Corp (ICDC), the new Iraqi Army (Iraq lives in a bad neighborhood), small business intiatives (grants to found radio, TV, and newspapers is a big thing right now), and numerous other things.

Do you think these things will benifet the average Iraqi? My sense, and seemingly the sense of ordinary IRaqis I speak to, is that they it will.

	26-03-2004 23:58									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Because Bush and Australia/Spain are playing politics with Iraqis and their government. So the blood is now on their hands if something happens.

How are Spain and Australia playing politics with Iraq's government? The US already plans transition to a new Israeli sovereign government in JKune, prior to the threatened Spanish pull out and Australian ones, and of course, if Bush went to the UN, neither would pull out.

Again, if you claim you can do it alone, claim all it takes is will, then be ready to be alone when others aren't willing anymore.

	27-03-2004 00:12									#64
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It can be done alone though there is a certain sense of legitamacy in numbers. This is how the UN gains legitamcy and that's how the Coalition gains legitamcy.

I wonder how exactly you propose a hand over from the Coalition to the UN could be accomplished and what it would entail. Would you have the UN in command and control of military units, just for creating political aporatuses, or something else?

	27-03-2004 00:14									#65
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quote: Originally posted by GePap How are Spain and Australia playing politics with Iraq's government? The US already plans transition to a new Israeli sovereign government in JKune,

	27-03-2004 00:15									#66
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Zionist crusader fruedian slip.

	27-03-2004 00:18									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If I may interject a few pertinent first hand observations. Most of the reconstruction money is going for things like power plants, schools, police academies & building police forces, roads, power lines, the Iraqi Civil Defense Corp (ICDC), the new Iraqi Army (Iraq lives in a bad neighborhood), small business intiatives (grants to found radio, TV, and newspapers is a big thing right now), and numerous other things. Do you think these things will benifet the average Iraqi? My sense, and seemingly the sense of ordinary IRaqis I speak to, is that they it will.

Half of it sounds as if things are steambuilded for a retreat of foreign troops (army, civil defense, police).

roads, power lines -and plants can be used for both economic and population wellfare. The question is for what purpose it is used now. Here in the west we hear that oil is coming out of Iraq once more. So from the sound of that a priority is given to the government income or corporation income (the ones investing there).

This is an interesting point to me: was there prior to the war such a lack of schooling facilities in Iraq that those have to be build now? And if so, are sufficient teachers available (Iraqi teachers I mean).

In your report thread you did mention a lot of information sources for the Iraqi. I am a bit surprised that so many different news sources are available for the population. How well is the common Iraqi capable of receiving all this (tv, radio, newspaper).

	27-03-2004 00:19									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse This would hurt Bush more than Spain- we're a much closer ally. It's Labor policy now to withdraw the troops if they win the next election - due by the end of the year. A majority of Australians believe we should never have gone into the Iraq war in the first place. It's not our fight, right out of our region. And the Opposition is looking very good to win the election right now.

Excellent another nation that wants to **** over the Iraqi people.

Edit: Wait a minute? I read the first article and it says.. 250 Australian troops are in Iraq? Big loss. The South Koreans are still sending their 3,000.

	27-03-2004 00:21									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It can be done alone though there is a certain sense of legitamacy in numbers. This is how the UN gains legitamcy and that's how the Coalition gains legitamcy. I wonder how exactly you propose a hand over from the Coalition to the UN could be accomplished and what it would entail. Would you have the UN in command and control of military units, just for creating political aporatuses, or something else?

Well, it's sort of self-evident, no?

The current "crisis" is that one of the coalition of the willing is willng to pull out under the current conditions, BUT is much more likely to stay in if the UN , not the US, were in charge. And by its example, others that feel they got shafted by the amdinistration and its little pet project are now mulling over the same possibility.

	27-03-2004 00:21									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Excellent another nation that wants to **** over the Iraqi people. Edit: Wait a minute? I read the first article and it says.. 250 Australian troops are in Iraq? Big loss. The South Koreans are still sending their 3,000.

Are they? The new possible government was not happy about were they might be sent.

	27-03-2004 00:23									#71
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Are they? The new possible government was not happy about were they might be sent.

They were getting a list of new possible locations. Other hot spots and the government said they were okay with that. What is wrong with you? You really want to screw over the Iraqi people that badly don't you? Why don't we just pull all troops out right now?

	27-03-2004 00:24									#72
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Iraq , becuase THERE WAS NO INVASION FORCE OF KOSOVO. The Serbia government put together a deal to end the bombing campaign.

I'd like to point out that the Serbs only gave in after the Hungarian government publically authorized a Nato invasion force to begin assembling in Hungary. Melosevic the bombing would be like the bombing the Republica Serbska got in Bosnia (short and not to extensive) so he thought he could wait it out. He only changed his mind when it became clear Nato was prepared to go all the way with a ground invasion.

	27-03-2004 00:26									#73
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quote: How are Spain and Australia playing politics with Iraq's government?

They are playing politics to show they don't like Bush and are pulling out their troops, which can be used to keep the peace. Sounds like playing poltics with Iraq's future to me.

	27-03-2004 00:26									#74
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If they want out, let 'em. Just like Spain, the majority of their people didn't want to be involved in the first place.

I happen to think pulling out now, after the invasion the people of Australia opposed has been done already, and the troops are there to keep the peace for reconstruction, is a mistake. But as I'm not an Australian citizen, I don't get a say in this one.

At the end of the day, this IS our mess. And 250 troops isn't going to make a difference in terms of the actual situation on the ground.

-Arrian

	27-03-2004 00:30									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui They are playing politics to show they don't like Bush and are pulling out their troops, which can be used to keep the peace. Sounds like playing poltics with Iraq's future to me.

I did not know Australia and Spain had any say in the formation of the new Iraqi government. Though you change your claim later, saying Iraq's future, not gov, which are two very different things.

And you still fail to address the point Imran: bush said he would go it alone in necessary-why should others not keep him to his word? Those states are democracies- if 70% of people do not want to be there, well, maybe their DMEOCRATIC governments should pay heed? Of course, but how dare the government of Spain take into account the feelings of the people of Spain-we all know that government is responsible to the Iraqi people....

	27-03-2004 00:30									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'd like to point out that the Serbs only gave in after the Hungarian government publically authorized a Nato invasion force to begin assembling in Hungary. Melosevic the bombing would be like the bombing the Republica Serbska got in Bosnia (short and not to extensive) so he thought he could wait it out. He only changed his mind when it became clear Nato was prepared to go all the way with a ground invasion.

Milosevic never changed his mind... he told NATO to invade. He called their bluff. NATO was never going to put ground troops in. They would've received heavy casualties.

	27-03-2004 00:32									#77
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I did not know Australia and Spain had any say in the formation of the new Iraqi government. Though you change your claim later, saying Iraq's future, not gov, which are two very different things. And you still fail to address the point Imran: bush said he would go it alone in necessary-why should others not keep him to his word? Those states are democracies- if 70% of people do not want to be there, well, maybe their DMEOCRATIC governments should pay heed? Of course, but how dare the government of Spain take into account the feelings of the people of Spain-we all know that government is responsible to the Iraqi people....

But.. these new governments are playing international political games with the lives of the Iraqi people. That to me is very disgusting. I think very badly of Zapatero right now.. who has been playing a little game with the lives of the Iraqi people.

	27-03-2004 00:33									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I wonder how exactly you propose a hand over from the Coalition to the UN could be accomplished and what it would entail. Would you have the UN in command and control of military units, just for creating political aporatuses, or something else?

Both cases (UN governing, US governing) are an outside force and rules set. Something like that will rarely be received well by local people.

I never heard of the UN itself controlling military units in whatever peace operation in the world. As far as I understand the concept of UN sended troops, they're there to keep order in place between local people hostile to each other. Thus as you mention it in your post, there is simply no precedence of such a situation.

IMO, there simply is no easy solution to how the state of things are in Iraq on the moment, it's just a large pile of chaos, and it just doesn't look like US presence is making a large difference. Things just look quelled, not solved.

	27-03-2004 00:38									#79
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Half of it sounds as if things are steambuilded for a retreat of foreign troops (army, civil defense, police).

You may recall the Coalition was much criticized for failing to provide adiquit security so we are trying to respond by beefing up Iraqis own security forces. The Police, Civil Defense Corp, and the new Army are all part of the long term effort to provide a safe and secure enviroment.

quote: roads, power lines -and plants can be used for both economic and population wellfare. The question is for what purpose it is used now. Here in the west we hear that oil is coming out of Iraq once more. So from the sound of that a priority is given to the government income or corporation income (the ones investing there).

Oil is vitally important to Iraq not least because it is their only real export. The previous government nationalized nearly every business of any significants and then mismanaged them into the ground. Oil is the only thing left that they can sell on the international market. That's why its given a priority. With something like 50% of the national economy dependent upon the sale of oil it is impossible to get Iraqis economy moving in a timely manner without focusing on oil exports.

quote: This is an interesting point to me: was there prior to the war such a lack of schooling facilities in Iraq that those have to be build now? And if so, are sufficient teachers available (Iraqi teachers I mean).

There were schools but not enough and nearly all of them are in such a state of disrepair that they will have to be condemned. Most have no electricity, no running water, no black boards, few desks, and the buildings have stress fractures which point to them not being structurally sound. I've seen this in the five schools I've personally visited and I've read reports of it occuring in many others. The schools, like most other buildings, were shoddily constructed to minimize on expenses.

Qualified teachers remain in short supply and with a 40% illiteracy rate they will remain so for the forseeable future.

quote: In your report thread you did mention a lot of information sources for the Iraqi. I am a bit surprised that so many different news sources are available for the population. How well is the common Iraqi capable of receiving all this (tv, radio, newspaper).

Being in Psyops I focus alot upon people's additudes and the ways which people form these additudes. Obviously, the media is a big part of this so I've spent alot of time looking at the media which is available here. The Iraqi people are not really used to hearing more then just the Information Ministry's view point and prior to the war it was a 5 year sentence if you were found to possess a satalite dish. Now, the people have gone into a feeding frenzy and they want all the news they can get their hands on.

A good informal gauge upon how well the Iraqi economy is doing is the massive number of new satalite dishes which are found even in the poorer neighborhoods.

	27-03-2004 00:40									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Milosevic never changed his mind... he told NATO to invade. He called their bluff. NATO was never going to put ground troops in. They would've received heavy casualties.

Melosevic most certainly did change his mind. He claimed he'd never withdraw from Kosovo and then later agreed to withdraw when it became clear the invasion force would start assembling shortly.

	27-03-2004 01:01									#81
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is there an australian Libertarian party?

	27-03-2004 01:03									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia is there an australian Libertarian party?

All libertarians are commies.. don't you know that?

Now seriously, can I ask you all a question.. regardless of your political ideology.. is it wise to pull out Iraq right now?

	27-03-2004 01:08									#83
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We're talking about huge numbers of money invested. A previous poster mentioned about 10 billion dollars rebuilding funds (american source only). I have to say that such numbers don't mean a thing to me. It sounds huge, but is it enough to build/rebuild the infrastructure and social fabric of a whole country? I suppose not (if memory serves me well) if I compare it with the BNP of my own country.

So at first it sounds that despite the overall investment of foreign money into Iraq, it will never be enough anyway. This is were the oil export comes in then.

The main question remains how many of the population can be reached by this sort of rebuilding programs. I still can't imagine a lot, especially if the high-tech jobs will be taken by non-Iraqi's. You indicate that such a thing will happen due to the lack of schooling of the common Iraqi.

I certainly can follow your mentioning of 'info frenzy' of the Iraqi's, I'm a bit in the same situation now of easy access to it. By whom are those dishes provided (or sold)?

Btw, for the Sava post: Milosevic indeed did change his mind. NATO was certainly not eager to receive heavy casualties, but enough determination could be shown so that Milosevic pulled back.

	27-03-2004 01:09									#84
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i dont think so, but thats just me.

	27-03-2004 01:22									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Now seriously, can I ask you all a question.. regardless of your political ideology.. is it wise to pull out Iraq right now?

As the situation seems to be now there? No, but that's no reason to stay.

	27-03-2004 01:55									#86
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quote: I did not know Australia and Spain had any say in the formation of the new Iraqi government. Though you change your claim later, saying Iraq's future, not gov, which are two very different things.

I said Iraqis AND their government. And you don't think the government of Iraq would like to have more troops to keep order in a starting-over phase?

quote: And you still fail to address the point Imran: bush said he would go it alone in necessary-why should others not keep him to his word? Those states are democracies- if 70% of people do not want to be there, well, maybe their DMEOCRATIC governments should pay heed? Of course, but how dare the government of Spain take into account the feelings of the people of Spain-we all know that government is responsible to the Iraqi people....

Yes, 'let him keep his word' and this ISN'T playing politics. This whole 'keep his word' crap is totally politics: let's show him type of BS. Why don't they stay in there to get Iraq back on its feet? Because they want to 'show' Bush.

	27-03-2004 02:15									#87
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Reply to the thread title (I haven't read every word of the thread):

We'll be finished by Christmas, back home by the fire...

Attachment: santa casualty.jpg
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	27-03-2004 02:20									#88
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Hopefully, with a change in US governments the American troups will be home for Chanukka.

... and I seem to remember a year ago Rumsfeld saying the troups would be home by Christmas last year !

	27-03-2004 02:39									#89
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I also question whether Australian voters will take the risk of pissing off their only credible ally in the region for 350 troops. Since I'm not Australian, I don't have a sense of how much currency this would have. Australia isn't Spain, which has the cloak of the EU to wrap around itself. The Pacific is a lonely place without the US to backstop you.

We've found our "only" ally hasn't been there for us lately - Timor being the latest example - we had to do it ourselves.

Same goes for Bougainville and the Solomons - most of you would have never heard of those ops. We have troops there now.

In Iraq, we won the wheat contracts recently - so USDA changed the contract specs and awarded the contracts to US suppliers. Must be Uncle Sam's way of saying thanks for being one of only 3 or 4 countries that actually took part in the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.

We're not afraid of anyone in our region. But they are afraid of us.

	27-03-2004 04:52									#90
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That is completely stupid in every way shape and form.
It actually weakens the force that is in control there...for what? To let weaken stability there? Because that's all it'll do.