29-03-2004 02:21									#31
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these laws suck. i dont do cigs, but its up to the owners of the property to decide what flies. if people dont like it, nobody forces them to go there, and nobody forces anyone to work there either.

	29-03-2004 02:22									#32
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Yeah well, what I feel in my personal politics and what goes on around me are two different things. I was just stating the reason for these laws, not whether I agree with them or not.

Would/should the same lack of health and safety concerns apply to all workplaces? Factories? Mines?

	29-03-2004 02:24									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia i dont do cigs

monica lewinsky does

	29-03-2004 02:26									#34
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OK, if the economic arguments haven't swayed some of you, nor how non-smokers (and some smokers) feel about the issue, how about the fact that these things kill!?

By banning smoking in public, the government will reduce the number of people dying from related diseases. It appears to be working already; the national smoking helpline has had a record number of calls from people wanting to give up.

Let's face it; the Irish would rather give up their fags by going into a non-smoking pub than give up their drink.

	29-03-2004 02:27									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia these laws suck. i dont do cigs, but its up to the owners of the property to decide what flies. if people dont like it, nobody forces them to go there, and nobody forces anyone to work there either.

Cigarette smoke is in the same class of carcinogens as Asbestos and other goodies, and I would think cities would be very interested if owners were exposing patrons and workers to asbestos, so I don't see the problem.

Private property rights don't trump the interest of cities and government in averting public exposure to carcinogens, now matter how socially acceptable they may be.

	29-03-2004 02:27									#36
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We'll all live forever once the scourge of smoking is beaten.

	29-03-2004 02:32									#37
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"First no smoking in bars, and soon no drinking and no talking" - Eddie Izzard

	29-03-2004 02:44									#38
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Sincerely, I do agree with regulations in factories and mines, and those that forbid Asbestos. But seriously, a PUB? Those are definitely a different case. Smoking is part of a culture and an ambiance, and I'm sure a barmaid who is already a smoker wouldn't have any problem working in a smoking environment.

I sincerely don't see why a Wal-Mart mom driving a SUV should be able to forbid me to smoke at my favorite pub, while I can't forbid her to pollute. Live and let live.

	29-03-2004 03:53									#39
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What about us in the liquor service industry that are non smokers? I work at a friggin off licence and I still come back stinking of smoke.

If people are allowed to smoke then I should be allowed to throw my drink in their eyes. An equal trade of toxins.

	29-03-2004 03:54									#40
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i'm a non-smoker but i live with 6 smokers (2 of whom are 'social smokers'), so cigs don't really bother me. i don't like the idea of a ban, as oncle boris says, it's part of going to the pub. i bet most people breath in more petrol fumes and other harmful stuff on their way to work than from a few people lighting up when they go to the boozer in the evening.

	29-03-2004 03:58									#41
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Why doesn't anyone like my idea? Vents are perfect. They'll suck all that smoke away.

	29-03-2004 05:04									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay Nobody ever died from secondhand farting.

Sig material!

	29-03-2004 06:00									#43
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous "First no smoking in bars, and soon no drinking and no talking" - Eddie Izzard

What about house coat wearing?

	29-03-2004 06:57									#44
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God, why are my fellow non-smokers all such whiny *****?

	29-03-2004 07:03									#45
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I lost two grandparents, and my mother at age 50, to smoking. I will ***** freely and loudly.

	29-03-2004 07:05									#46
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I lost two grandparents, also. Doesn't change the fact that *****ing about smoking would make me an insufferable killjoy.

	29-03-2004 07:19									#47
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Killjoy, Im not killing anyone's joy. If you or anyone else wants to partake in the inhalation of a class A carcinogen for pleasure, and talk like Ned from South Park, go right ahead. Just leave everyone else out.

There is no sane reason to allow smoking ANYwhere, except maybe with the sole exception of alcohol-serving establishments.

	29-03-2004 07:22									#48
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quote: There is no sane reason to allow smoking ANYwhere

I guess respect for personal freedom isn't a "sane reason" anymore...

	29-03-2004 07:31									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: There is no sane reason to allow smoking ANYwhere I guess respect for personal freedom isn't a "sane reason" anymore...

That cuts both ways. What about my freedom, and anyone else around a smoker, to have clean, non-toxic air in a restaurant or an office?

Since most people don't smoke, it's not much to ask a smoker to not make other people unwitting participants in breathing noxious fumes, and to smoke in a designated area. It's only the number one preventable cause of death in the US, after all.

	29-03-2004 07:34									#50
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quote: That cuts both ways. What about my freedom, and anyone else around a smoker, to have clean, non-toxic air in a restaurant or an office?

There's plenty of clean, non-toxic air to be found (outside of big cities, that is). You're perfectly free to avoid places that choose to cater to smokers.

	29-03-2004 07:46									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You're perfectly free to avoid places that choose to cater to smokers.

And you're perfectly free to take 10 or 20 steps out the door when you want to light up.

There are places few and far between that actually "cater" to smokers. Smoking is tolerated now, if anything, as a relic of bygone days like the 60's and 70's when you actually could smoke anywhere.

If there are places that want to cater to smokers, more power to 'em. Just leave most restaurants and public meeting places out of it.

	29-03-2004 07:53									#52
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quote: And you're perfectly free to take 10 or 20 steps out the door when you want to light up.

I don't see why the government should force a person to take those 10 or 20 steps when the establishment they're in would prefer to allow them to smoke inside.

And I'm not a smoker.

quote: There are places few and far between that actually "cater" to smokers. Smoking is tolerated now, if anything, as a relic of bygone days like the 60's and 70's when you actually could smoke anywhere.

Depends where you live. Smoking is quite common here.

	29-03-2004 08:15									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil The 'good for business' argument is BS on the face of it. If it was good for business the State would not have to force business to comply. The business owners know the truth.

Or, alternatively, it's only good for business when all businesses do it simultaneously.

	29-03-2004 08:18									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I sincerely don't see why a Wal-Mart mom driving a SUV should be able to forbid me to smoke at my favorite pub, while I can't forbid her to pollute. Live and let live.

SUVs should be outlawed.

	29-03-2004 08:52									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp I always viewed it as a fair trade in bars, anyway. Non-smokers share my smoke, while I share their ostentatious and theatrical coughing, and self-righteous little homilies delivered at a volume designed to ensure that every person in a 50-foor radius is aware of the fact that I'm being lectured like a naughty little schoolboy.

Just laugh in their face and ask them why they would be so stupid as to risk their very lives by remaining in a building where people are smoking, unless they were simply exagerating in order to go off on their self-righteous tantrum.

Let the market decide these questions. Supposedly smoking is becoming less and less popular, and if people are truly as aggrieved by second hand smoke as some claim the demand for non-smoking bars should be astronomical by now. But for some strange reason the measurable demand for such places lags far behind people's willingness to boss one another around via the government. I prefer the whiner who complains about my smoking in person to the coward who sics armed men on me through the ballot.

	29-03-2004 08:59									#56
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quote: Originally posted by our_man OK, if the economic arguments haven't swayed some of you, nor how non-smokers (and some smokers) feel about the issue, how about the fact that these things kill!? By banning smoking in public, the government will reduce the number of people dying from related diseases. It appears to be working already; the national smoking helpline has had a record number of calls from people wanting to give up. Let's face it; the Irish would rather give up their fags by going into a non-smoking pub than give up their drink.

I guess people who can't develop a nuanced policy on public safety issues tend to be willing to outlaw everything short of what they themselves do. Few people are far-sighted enough to make room for others to behave differently than they themselves do. Laugh now and you'll be crying in your milk tomorrow, because beer will be outlawed as well.

	29-03-2004 10:38									#57
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People can't get cancer from secondhand beer smelling, either.

	29-03-2004 10:41									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten There's plenty of clean, non-toxic air to be found (outside of big cities, that is). You're perfectly free to avoid places that choose to cater to smokers.

I haven't seen any places that cater only to smokers. Most businesses do not prohibit smoking because they are afraid to lose business. This has been shown to be false over and over again, with data from various cities that have smoking bans.

	29-03-2004 10:41									#59
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I never said cater only to smokers...

	29-03-2004 10:47									#60
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The NY smoking ban, at least in NYC, isn't creating any noticeable economic hardship on bar and restaurant owners. Opponents of the ban have utterly failed to substantiate that claim. Enforcement seems to be near-universal in Manhattan, but is harder in the burroughs. My roommates and I live near a Greek bar where they will let people smoke after 9 PM. But the cops are routinely casing the place trying to catch it--so don't think it's being ignored by the police (as if they had nothing better to do...). Moreover, the ban is now popular, enjoying support from over 60% of NYCers. So I doubt it will be reversed anytime soon.

The problems now are increased litter and noise in front of bars. Gaggles of smokers standing out on the sidewalks at 3 AM talking loudly tend to irritate local residents.