 |
| |
|
|
GSTEIN
|
|
In response to Trithemethius: Your response was well argued but I take issue with your last statement that because WWII was won with the aid of the Stalinist alliance this disproves my origina statement.
Look what happened after the War. Who won the Cold War. Indeed, Soviet Russia was so incompetent, corrupt and absurd that it collapsed utterly without any military force applied from the outside. The Communists were simply jokes, muderous jokes, but utter fools; their dictatorship of the proletariate lasted only about 70 years.
Although Alpha Centauri is science fiction and techs may be developed in the future to enable dictatorships to be efficient it seem to me there should be some limit on the 'anything is possible in the future' argument. The argument states, in effect, that many millenia of human evolution and civilization can be nullified the moment some scientist working for a despot invents some gadget that can control your brain. This is possible but I doubt it strongly. In spite of all the techs invented in the last 100 years humans are mostly the same now and they were before. I am somewhat doubtful that human character will be substantially changed in future regardless of any sceintific discoveries.
Also, I notice a lack of concern for the morality of joining a monsterous faction like the Hive. After all, the original question of the tread had to do not with just winning a GAME by any means but which faction you would join if this was REAL. Again I ask, who on this forum is prepared to torture and murder human beings (in reality, not in a game) to force them to conform, or, just for the hell of it, as in most dictatorships. I notice a certain shying away from the questions of right and wrong.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Skanky Burns
|
 |
Skanky Bastard Quartermaster
Aug 2001
time: 14:35
|
|
Gaians: I could probably fit in with them. Having a faction where the females are encouraged to dance naked in the forests - well, no need to point out the benefits of that. 
Hive: Crushing all humanity, internal and external, is not my cup of tea.
University: Lots of cluey people playing around with toys all day making nifty gadgets. Or testing things to find out how they work. Sounds like fun. The only problem is I may not be creative or motivated enough in such a society to do well.
Morgans: Probably my first choice. Accountants would be valued highly here. 
Spartans: I'd have problems in this faction. I'm not very aggressive, nor much into physical activity (with some exceptions). The Spartan women might make this pick worthwhile though.
Believers: I'd be crucified.
Peacekeepers: Shrug.
Cyborgs: Now this would be cool. I imagine the relationship here as a symbiosis. You would still be you, the complete you, but have the support and guidance of the AI in logical matters. Your emotions would still be there, but supressed as you have someone you can discuss things with in your mind before reacting on your emotions. And if the AI in your head happened to be female, then what need would you have for other partners? Gives new meaning to the term "Mind-****".
Pirates: I don't like the sea, although sailing over it is fun. Probably not a lifestyle thing though.
Drones: I'm not much into physical things, but moreover I would need some outlet for my intellect and what creativness I have. On the other hand, you would have nicely built females without the aggression of Spartans.
Angels: Possible. Then again, I don't have the anti-social attitude required for this faction.
Cult & Aliens: Nah. 
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Trithemius
|
 |
Canberra, Australia
May 2003
time: 14:35
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by GSTEIN
Look what happened after the War. Who won the Cold War. Indeed, Soviet Russia was so incompetent, corrupt and absurd that it collapsed utterly without any military force applied from the outside. The Communists were simply jokes, muderous jokes, but utter fools; their dictatorship of the proletariate lasted only about 70 years. |
I do not consider a prolonged economic competition (as the arms race was) to be a "war". Some people have also argued that the collapse of the Soviet Union in the 1990s was due to Glasnost and Perestroika and that without these programs central planning in the Soviet Union could have continued for several decades. I'm not entirely convinced myself but I can see something reasonable behind the argument, although I am of the opinion that if the centrally planned regime had persisted the eventual collapse would have been total.
quote:
Although Alpha Centauri is science fiction and techs may be developed in the future to enable dictatorships to be efficient it seem to me there should be some limit on the 'anything is possible in the future' argument. The argument states, in effect, that many millenia of human evolution and civilization can be nullified the moment some scientist working for a despot invents some gadget that can control your brain. This is possible but I doubt it strongly. In spite of all the techs invented in the last 100 years humans are mostly the same now and they were before. I am somewhat doubtful that human character will be substantially changed in future regardless of any sceintific discoveries. |
It's hardly "anything is possible in the future", I was simply stating that Hayek's problems with centrally planned societies could possibly be overcome by use of improved networks and surveillance. I don't think this is anything as wacky as positing The Telepathic Matrix as a solution (which, SMAC/X does).
(I think Hayek does a pretty good job of presenting the problems with revolutionary socialism in his era. His problems with less "extreme" socialism are not as compelling, IMO.)
quote:
Also, I notice a lack of concern for the morality of joining a monsterous faction like the Hive. After all, the original question of the tread had to do not with just winning a GAME by any means but which faction you would join if this was REAL. Again I ask, who on this forum is prepared to torture and murder human beings (in reality, not in a game) to force them to conform, or, just for the hell of it, as in most dictatorships. I notice a certain shying away from the questions of right and wrong. |
You may note that I stated that I preferred the Peacekeepers.
I shy away from "right and wrong" since morality is relative to one's society.
I also don't see the kind of agressive and total re-education of individuals that the Hive seems to embody as neccessarily being "torture"; I'm not sure what the Human Hive does in the way of "torture" that the other factions do not also do. In fact, I put it to you that the lower classes in the Hive and in the Morganites would have a remarkably similar kind of existence; especially if we consider the kind of life lived by the labourers in the laissez-faire Britain of the Industrial Revolution (which is as close to a "free market" as I can think of).
EDIT: I need to learn to preview before I hit submit. 
Last edited by Trithemius on 30-03-2004 at 09:29
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Commy
|
 |
St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:35
|
|
I said that I wanted to be part of the Angels, and I still hold to that. They support a free society just like all the other good factions:
Peacekeepers
Morgans
University
Drones
Gaians
These are all the democratic factions (most of the time), and except Deidre, I support all of them. Dictatorships suck. When people willingly and freely fight for their countries, and don't have to be forced to fight, you know they're protecting something good. Democracies are the best, and give freedom to citizens. Free markets are also good, allowing people to make their own economic decisions. As someone mentioned earlier, wealth is great, because it makes sure everyone has a better standard of life. And Eudaimonic does the same, upholding better living standards. For all you real commies and dictators out there (don't look at my username, it's what my friends know me as), democracies all the way!!!
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
The Mad Monk
|
 |
of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:35
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by CEO Aaron
I'd say this is a classic case of familiarity breeding contempt. I'd have to say that I chose Morgan the last time this poll ran, and I'm choosing them again for the same reasons:
Hab limits: Morganites get more spacious and luxurious living quarters. Did everyone forget this? All those Hivers living in an underground hole eating soylent green, and the Gaians surviving off kelp crunchies can go screw, I'm going to make sure I get the good stuff.
Free Market Economy and Wealth values: I'm certainly not going to claim that unchecked materialism is the solution to the world's problems, but of all the factions' belief values and belief systems, Morgan's is the only one that's ever made sense to me. Historically speaking, societies focused on the creation of wealth DO create a better life for the vast majority of their citizens, and ironically, collectivist sociteties focussed on enforcing equality have consistently devolved into poverty-stricken despotisms. The free market may not be perfect, but it's the only way I want to live. |
Yep, great points.
I'd want to be a Morganite -- those people know how to live.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Comrade Tassadar
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Commy
I said that I wanted to be part of the Angels, and I still hold to that. They support a free society just like all the other good factions:
Peacekeepers
Morgans
University
Drones
Gaians
These are all the democratic factions (most of the time), and except Deidre, I support all of them. Dictatorships suck. When people willingly and freely fight for their countries, and don't have to be forced to fight, you know they're protecting something good. Democracies are the best, and give freedom to citizens. Free markets are also good, allowing people to make their own economic decisions. As someone mentioned earlier, wealth is great, because it makes sure everyone has a better standard of life. And Eudaimonic does the same, upholding better living standards. For all you real commies and dictators out there (don't look at my username, it's what my friends know me as), democracies all the way!!! |
People are inheritly stupid and if a system is built around the people, it is built around stupidity.
And free market creates great wealth for a few people, and turns the rest into slaves.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Santiago_Claus
|
|
If I'm a member of a faction, it means I've crash landed on a planet whose fauna comprises a singular, sentient being of unimaginable power.
That pretty much cuts down on the number of factions a smart person would seek to join.
Even before you know you've crash landed on a semi-sentient ticking time-bomb, it doesn't take long looking around to realize you're in a VERY WEIRD place, a place which must be studied and understood if you and your faction are to survive.
The Gaians are an obvious choice. Their preference is "Green", which means they treat the "Planet Faction" in essence as a diplomatic problem; by negotiating with Planet they hope to be spared from destruction, and perhaps even achieve symbiosis with Planet. Talk about being the right faction in the right place at the right time.
The University values "Knowledge", and knowledge of the planet constitutes a part of that. More flexible than the Gaians, this faction would thrive in virtually any alien environment.
The Spartans, with their emphasis on survival, also have a good value system given the environment, and in the interest of survival might come to understand both the biology and psychology of their host Planet, but Col. Santiago is responsible for the destruction of the Unity. She probably believes that she knows best and that anyone who disagrees is a threat to the faction's survival.
The Caretakers see the "growth-dream" as utter disaser, like we might see a forest fire or horrible disease, and work to prevent it. The Usurpers know the power of the Manifold and want to harness it. I can respect both points of view.
The Cybers have a collective mind and so might intuitively understand Planet. They also seem to have a better grasp of alien tech than most other factions.
Lal and his faction are philosophical and open-minded like the University, and like Deidre the PK's seem to have an awareness that Chiron is a diplomatic problem as much as a military and scientific one -- and no faction is better at diplomacy than the Peacekeepers! This is the faction I would choose. What does it for me is their aversion to "Police State" and the agreeable nature of those who would be my fellow citizens, who can cram themselves together in their habitable space yet still be happier than any other faction except maybe Domai.
Everyone else misses the "Big Picture":
Miriam's religious fundamentalism leaves no room for truth except by coincidence; it forbids thought along certain axes, permitting degrees of freedom only in very narrow bands. If the reality of Planet's existence lies outside of the band of flexibility of Believer philosophy, they'll never "get it", never understand, and ultimately wind up worm food.
Cha Dawn is a little better, as his "god" just happens to be real, but he doesn't seem to realize that, unlike a god, Planet is fallible, and indeed will obliterate itself without human (or alien) intervention.
The Free Drones are more concerned with their society's material distribution and leadership scheme than its actual wealth, science, or indeed the planet itself. Like a labor union striking for higher wages in a factory that's losing money, they have a "rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic" mentality about them. Yang isn't quite as bad, but is still too inwardly-focused.
I'm all for capitalism, but CEO Morgan doesn't believe in environmental protection. On Earth that means a slow accumulation of expensive but solvable problems over the span of a few centuries; on Chiron it means the planet itself wakes up and tries to kill you. Provoking such wrath isn't very smart.
The Pirates and Data Angels are just criminals sponging off the other factions' hard work. Also, Roze is way too cocky; while she's "tagging your data and releasing it into the wild" Santiago is massing her troops. "Appear to give her what she wants" doesn't work if what she wants is to see what The Datajack looks like from the other side of a Punishment Sphere.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
mart7x5
|
|
PK's for me, they seem kinda to like personal freedom.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Commy
|
|
St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:35
|
|
Someone dissed my ideals on free markets and democracies. I have nothing against communism, but look at every communist country in the world. EVERYONE (except the leader, somehow) is poor. But come to America with a free market, and very few people are even close to poor. The people run Europe, the people run North America, and the people run many other countries. NONE of these countries have fallen. America stills stands as the leading economy, only superpower, and largest industry in the world. Europe has by far the most resources and is one of the wealthiest region in the world. But look at all the communist countries. All but one fell. Russia couldn't keep people under communism, and lost its control. When Germany saw how wealthy a free market made a country, it abandoned its idea of communism. Vietnam couldn't hold its grip. The only country still standing is China. And the only reason is because any one who disagrees is killed or thrown in jail for a couple (actually a lot) of years. The only reason its economy has fallen is because it has 2 billion people all working crappy jobs. Look at events such as Tian A Men Square Massacre. China took the liberty to kill its own people. And the government, which is already corrupted, raised taxes in Bejing and billed people for transporting their family members' dead bodies and the bullet that killed them.
It is not communism, or socialism, or dictatorships, that are bad and make societies fall. It is the people who run them and the countries they're run in that are screwed up. Yang's idealogies, to create a society of perfectness by torturing citizens, is fascism. Some people have mentioned a good leader is needed to run the planet, not the people. That is called a frontier society, not a dictatorship, and the best example of a frontier is when the President ordered people to go out west and settle the land. U.S. marshalls policed the west and enforced laws, but it was not a dictatorship.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
mart7x5
|
|
A lot of thoughts here
quote:
Originally posted by Commy
But come to America with a free market, and very few people are even close to poor. |
From perspective of being in the states it is not true. There are rich people here, but I wouldn't call number of those poor few. Certainly not few.
quote:
America stills stands as the leading economy, only superpower, and largest industry in the world. |
It's a myth. It is Goliath on clay legs. Watch next 30-50 years of world's history, it will be very interesting
quote:
Europe has by far the most resources and is one of the wealthiest region in the world. But look at all the communist countries. All but one fell. Russia couldn't keep people under communism, and lost its control. |
I completely agree
quote:
When Germany saw how wealthy a free market made a country, it abandoned its idea of communism |
Yeah, Marx, Engels, it was already too late for the eastern europe to avoid that desease...
quote:
Vietnam couldn't hold its grip. |
I have heard Vietnam was more concerned about independence. Communism was just opportunity to get rid of Western Europen and North American colonialism
quote:
The only country still standing is China. And the only reason is because any one who disagrees is killed or thrown in jail for a couple (actually a lot) of years. The only reason its economy has fallen is because it has 2 billion people all working crappy jobs. |
Not quite. wherever I go in the US I see: "Made in China" "Made in China" "Made in China" "Made in China" "Made in China" ....
quote:
...It is not communism, or socialism, or dictatorships, that are bad and make societies fall. It is the people who run them and the countries they're run in that are screwed up. |
I think that an appropriate King is 100 times better than Democracy. The problem is that sometimes a nasty tyrant can take the throne.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Barinthus
|
 |
A Magical Moment...
Jan 2004
time: 21:35
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Commy
But come to America with a free market, and very few people are even close to poor. |
I understand your point you're trying to make. However I have to disagree with that sentence. You're more than welcome to check out the Skid Row in Los Angeles. I used to live in Washington, DC and I lived in a ghetto area. I remember one apartment building I lived in. It wasn't your standard huge building, it was only 4 floors with two units per floor. Anyway in the back there's a fire escape stairway and I can easily see the U.S. Captial. Right below the Captial is this rows after rows of ghetto houses. I only wish I had a skill with photography, that'd be a great picture - the world's most powerful building surrounded by poverty, drugs, prostitution, and crime.
Heck I'm poor myself - I'm below the poverty line.
quote:
America stills stands as the leading economy, only superpower, and largest industry in the world. |
America at this moment in history, I don't argue with you. However, as a nation, we have already committed the sin of hubris which will surely lead to our downfall as the vanguard nation. In fact the decline of the American power is already happening. If we're smart, we would prepare for the transition to an entity more friendly to our interests instead of fighting the history and go down into flames which would be the worse sceniaro. Earth doesn't need two 'Russias' - former superpowers bitter and longing for 'old good days' and would do anything to regain those days.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
livid imp
|
 |
Gimme a quarter or I'll touch you
Mar 2004
time: 21:35
|
|
Honestly Commie, I'm not trying to pick on you but....
quote:
but look at every communist country in the world. EVERYONE (except the leader, somehow) is poor |
Only problem with that statement is that all the "communist" states we've seen in the world were all really just dictatorships (or at best oligarchies) of countries which were fairly poor to begin with (East Germany being a notable exception) The truth is we've never really seen true "communism" develop on a large scale. Such a state would more closely resemble a hippie commune than a military dictatorship. Lenin was in the process of starting a communist state when Stalin (complete psycho dictator) hijacked the process. And on paper, true communism is much closer to true democracy than any other form of government. The USA is a republic, not a democracy. I don't remember putting in a vote to go to Iraq, do you? But I digress....
quote:
But come to America with a free market, and very few people are even close to poor. |
The USA is the land of opportunity not the land of milk and honey. There are plenty of dirt poor people in the US, but for some reason they don't appear in episodes of "Bay Watch" The world (and a lot of Americans) believe some crazy myths about the US.
But it is true the more free the society, generally the better off the folks on the bottom will be.
quote:
America stills stands as the leading economy, only superpower, and largest industry in the world. Europe has by far the most resources and is one of the wealthiest region in the world. But look at all the communist countries. |
Actually look at Saudi Arabia or Sweden. They have some of the highest standards of living in the world yet their economic systems are very socialistic.
quote:
Vietnam couldn't hold its grip |
Huh? Vietnam is a (now) peaceful and increasing economically successful country.
quote:
The only reason its economy {China} has fallen is because it has 2 billion people all working crappy jobs. |
China's economy has been slowly improving over the years since they started letting western businesses in. Remember from the SE chart, the police state and free market are not mutually exclusive of one another. IMO China is the model for the free market police state.
quote:
It is not communism, or socialism, or dictatorships, that are bad and make societies fall. It is the people who run them and the countries they're run in that are screwed up. |
Now that is something I can agree 110% with you. Even democracy is not infallible. Democracy=Tyranny of the Majority. The German people backed Hitler. The southern people backed slavery. The people can be lunatics at times.
quote:
Bah, all these people fooled by the PK's pretense of democracy. You expect me to beleive a democratic faction would elect that dick Lal repeatedly for 200 years? |
Just furthering my point
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Commy
|
|
St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:35
|
|
Let me correct myself. Maybe perhaps a lot of people are poor in America and Europe. But look at China and old USSR. Practically everyone, with the exception of the politicians, is way under the American and European living standard. No, America and Europe have many poor people, I know that. But people in America have the ability, the freedom, to become wealthy, and not have to share their profit with some communistic government project to "greater improve our society". Yeah, first few years on planet, one good leader is needed. But when you have a society, give people freedom. If it weren't for the people, you'd be running nothing but a bunch of animals in the wild. Dictatorships can never last. Why? Because people hate suppression. If you can't give people freedom, they'll find it. And if the people don't agree with your society, you're screwed. Because as leader, if the people leave, you have nothing.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Zeiter
|
|
I think the planned SE choice is the closest thing in AC to communism. And let's remember, planned and democracy are not mutually exclusive, just like police state and free market aren't. I think a police state/FM society is the one I would least like to live in. A demo/planned is the one I would most like to live in.
Some attributes of a democratic planned economy would be:
similar economic institutions as the U.S., except much tighter government regulations, higher taxes, but also more social programs, like universal health care and free, government funded college education. You'd have greater oversight on accounting practices and such. Also, if your factory is making bolts, but the country needs pipes, you might have to revamp your factory to producing pipes, but you will still making a fair profit due to subsidies from the government, and the people will be getting what they need. Prices in critical sectors like food, energy, and housing would be regulated so that businesses make a fair profit and consumers pay a fair price. I think it would be a very stable and fulfilling society to live in.
So, I would probably go with the University (because I think pursuit of knowledge is mankind's greatest goal) running demo/planned/knowledge.
BTW, I definitely agree that the U.S. is on a downward slide. I see it everyday with friends not being able to find work, food and gas prices going up, telemarketer calls from India, and everything "made in China". If China isn't making everything already, pretty soon it will be, and nobody will need the U.S. The only thing to keep the U.S. powerful will be its military, but as all of you SMAC players know, a nation cannot keep a strong military for long without a good economy and infrastructure, which is what the U.S. is slowly losing. I see China and the EU as being dominant world powers in about 50 years, with India also doing quite well, and the U.S. as a sort of post-cold war Russia.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Santiago_Claus
|
|
Zeiter, your economic model only works for emerging economies, and even then only temporarily and only without the vast social spending programs you've outlined.
The Japanese call it "Keiretsu"; the Western word for it is "Mercantilism". It is the idea that the government can, through close management of the economy, boost economic production and achieve economic superiority in a given field.
It's almost like a monopoly, except instead of a corporation using profits from one industry to subsidize another, the government provides the subsidies. Once market domination is achieved, the host country, like the host corporation, reaps the rewards for as long as the economy remains static. That should provide a clue to the weakness of "Keiretsu": once the economy changes the subsidy system becomes a millstone tied about the neck.
Emerging countries can run their planned economies very lean and focused and so can adapt quickly, cutting taxes and spending and recovering when all that central planning inevitably hits the wall of marketplace obsolesence.
Temporary planned economies work precisely because they are temporary, built for the specific purpose of bootstrapping a "true" free-market economy.
Japan made the mistake of thinking "Keiretsu" was superior to good old-fashioned capitalism and they let it run too long, allowed too many government officials into the till, and wound up taking a bath. It served its purpose, but the modern Japanese economy is too sophisticated now for "Keiretsu" to amount to anything but graft.
Bloated welfare budgets belong in a different class entirely, a model known as the "free lunch". It's good if you can get it, but unless you're an oil-rich country like Sweden good luck.
The rest of us have to pay our own way. Italy tried the "free lunch model" and has taxed and spent itself to ruin. France and Spain are about to follow suit. Maybe if they had Sweden's per capita share of oil they could pull it off. They don't.
Honestly neither does America; our budget has a limit defined by the per capita productivity of our citizens, not vast fields of oil or some other magical golden goose.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:35.
Apolyton Time is 00:35. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
30-03-2004 07:12
|