01-04-2004 20:01									#31
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quote: Police state because democracy merely is an illusion; lawyers are not elected. Bankers are not elected. and such.

quote: Thought Control in that Americas output of propaganda is so incredibly high, and the people buy it!!!!!

quote: I'd even go so far as saying that it has switched to Thought Control.

	01-04-2004 23:57									#32
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oh, oh....I want to put in my 2 cents
US = Demo/FM/Wealth
The US is a democracy (republic is a form of demo) that has been slipping more and more into a fundy stance. 9/11 security measures, tax money going towards "faith based" programs, etc.
No one argues FM.
I say wealth over power because we have to pick one in this case, but really I think it is a bit of both. Wealth tends to create infrastructure, one needs only to look at the US interstate freeway system to see that. We do have a huge military budget, but only because we have the infrastructure to support it. I don't think the US is Knowledge based cause we really don't value our schools enough. Most K-12 schools are woefully under funded in the states.

Old China = PS/Planned/Power
New China = PS/FM/Power

Clearly a PS, with a huge military.
Cleary began as a planned economy but recently is opening its markets to the world.

Old USSR = PS/Planned/Power
New Russia = Demo/FM/Survival

Quite a turn-a-round eh?

Most of Europe = Demo/Planned/FM/Knowledge

Most of Europe is really a hybrid Capitalist / Socialist so I guess I really cant pick one after all.

Sweden = Demo/Planned/Knowledge

Saudi Arabia = PS/Planned/Wealth

I say PS cause it is a Monarchy even if it is a fairly benign one.
Upon further thought, I can't decide between PS or Fundy since it is a Monachy, but it does allow for Fundimentalism sytle laws to be enfored.

Iran = Fundy/Simple/Power

India/Japan/And most 1st world nations = Demo/FM/Wealth


I really don't see any nations as truly "Green" but the US and Europe would likely be the closest to it.

Also, would "nationalism" be considered "fundamentalism"?

Oh, and, no future society because....well....it hasn't occured yet.

Last edited by livid imp on 02-04-2004 at 00:43

	02-04-2004 00:17									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Hence my support for anarchosyndicalism The only truely FAIR and WORKABLE government for a large population is to abolish the govenment completely -Jam

I think you said it, Jamski.

Definitely best choice for everyone. I don't need a president to tell me how to make my life better. I think I posted a reply to this on accident in the wrong thread. Said some stuff about Africa. Sorry. Well, now I'm putting it in the right place.

	02-04-2004 00:28									#34
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quote: I'm probably biased but I'm not so sure if universal healthcare provide the same quality that private healthcare does. The downside is that not everybody has their own private healthcare.

Such is true, but at least everyone would get it: Prices would be cheaper, and we could all become well if we needed a doctor.

quote: The Orwellian language "denial of universal healthcare" reveals the writer as an advocate of slavery.

To argue that slavery of all forms does not exist in our society is to argue against human nature.

quote: If I "deny you" my services because you have "denied" to give me anything in return for them, who is denying whom? Should I work for free -- indeed be threatened with violence if I refuse?

If you took an oath to save peoples lives, it should not matter whether you get money in return for it.
If I'm going to die if you don't operate on me, but I don't have enough money for surgery, a true place of healing would underwrite the cost.

quote: If doctors are not worthy of compensation, they are slaves to the people; if they can present demand drafts to the government, then the people are slaves to doctors.

Your point being?

quote: Jac de Molay

I counter your laughing attack with my rolleyes!

	02-04-2004 00:30									#35
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quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron In order to correctly pigeonhole the US, you'd need to come up with another Government Type: Plutocracy.

I skimmed over and missed this before I posted. You are right on the money CEO (forgive the pun ) I was trying to fit things into the current SMAC choices, but if Plutocracy was a choice, that would nail the US.

	02-04-2004 01:00									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Yeah but its like choosing between McDonalds and Burger King. You still get a crap excuse for a meal whatever you "elected" -Jam

True, but Democracy is a just method, it has no control over content.

	02-04-2004 01:10									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar I counter your laughing attack with my rolleyes!

My friend, the US is FAR from being a Police State, either in SMAC or real life. The police do not wield any extraordinary power because there is free speech and a free press to hold them in check. And thought control? I mean, really

People look at the US and say it isn't a Democracy because of how corrupted the federal government. But people forget that are numerous sublayers of goverment that people are much more involved at the grass-roots level.

	02-04-2004 01:14									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski In Europe about 98% is religiouly unaffiliated....

98%?? Wow that is a really high percent. Are you sure of these numbers? If so I'm packing my bags. No one knocking on your door at 7:30 in the morning to cram their particular brand invisible spirit worship down my throat. Sounds like heaven to me , if only it weren't so damn crowded there.

	02-04-2004 01:24									#39
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp Most of Europe = Demo/Planned/FM/Knowledge Most of Europe is really a hybrid Capitalist / Socialist so I guess I really cant pick one after all.

With an ever so slow tendency towards green, I feel.

	02-04-2004 01:30									#40
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp 98%?? Wow that is a really high percent. Are you sure of these numbers? If so I'm packing my bags. No one knocking on your door at 7:30 in the morning to cram their particular brand invisible spirit worship down my throat. Sounds like heaven to me , if only it weren't so damn crowded there.

I don't know exactly what Jam means with 'unaffiliated', but a high percentage of the people might be a so-called 'member' of a congruation (done by the parents or grandparents), but does not participate in the 'massings' anymore.

Is it really that common in the USA that preaching people ring on the door occasionally?

And about being crowded: I think in essence the USA is more crowded on the best habitable places then most of Europe. Don't forget that there is no 'empty midwest' or deserts here.

	02-04-2004 02:54									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay My friend, the US is FAR from being a Police State, either in SMAC or real life. The police do not wield any extraordinary power because there is free speech and a free press to hold them in check. And thought control? I mean, really

Free speech I will grant you, although that free speech often can get you into trouble with the federal government
Free press? When all the major media outlets are owned by a few....

quote: People look at the US and say it isn't a Democracy because of how corrupted the federal government. But people forget that are numerous sublayers of goverment that people are much more involved at the grass-roots level.

Which is good.
But the problem is: That really is moot if the federal government can do whatever the hell it wants to

	02-04-2004 06:14									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay My friend, the US is FAR from being a Police State, either in SMAC or real life. The police do not wield any extraordinary power because there is free speech and a free press to hold them in check. And thought control? I mean, really People look at the US and say it isn't a Democracy because of how corrupted the federal government. But people forget that are numerous sublayers of goverment that people are much more involved at the grass-roots level.

Finally, a person who believes the US is doing a democracy. Never said it wasn't corrupted, but there is no thought control either. If there was, my neighbors wouldn't be vandalizing eachother's houses. Come on people, just because the politicians are trying to lead a country of fascism deosn't mean we are actually doing a thought control.

	02-04-2004 08:43									#43
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp No one knocking on your door at 7:30 in the morning to cram their particular brand invisible spirit worship down my throat.

It depends on where you live. In Maine, I never had that problem. Maryland, either. Nor California.

The only place I had that problem would be District of Columbia and it was because I lived near a Kingdom Hall. It only happened once.

One morning I just got out of the shower so I was butt naked. The door rang and I just ran downstair to answer it wearing nothing but a towel. The look on the Jehovah's Witness' face was priceless

The only place I felt most annoyed by those religious people would be Kenya. People were upset that I didn't attend the local church on weekends (everybody's either a 7th Day Adventist or PECA (Pentacost or something) in my area). Now that's one place that state and religion is nearly inseperate.

	02-04-2004 12:08									#44
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You scoff at the idea that the U.S. has developed technology to benefit the environment? You need to catch up with the times. There are so many I don't even need to look them up.

Without touching Google I can come up with a bunch of examples:

Genetically engineered pigs whose, err, waste products contain fewer problem chemicals (in particular phosphorus, I seem to recall).

Genetically engineered trees which filter air pollution.

Genetically engineered trees which grow quickly and produce shorter, weaker, more biodegradable cellulose fibers for such temporary items as newspapers.

Genetically engineered bacteria which clean up oil spills.

Biodegradable plastics. (Mostly still in development.)

Exhaust-scrubbing technologies which reduce pollution caused by burning of coal.

A permanent, secure storage site for nuclear waste. (Under construction.)

Specially engineered sonar that won't harm whales.

Ongoing research into hybrid, electric, and fuel cell powered vehicles.

Genetically engineered crops that resist pests and require less fertilizer, reducing the need for pesticides and fertilizers.

Plants specially selected to grow in the harsh conditions on the roofs of tall buildings to prevent "city-deserts" from forming downwind. NASA discovered that dense clusters of tall buildings raise the temperature over them to such a degree it shows up on satellites, and they screw up the climate downwind. I have no doubt that the flora grown on rooftops will soon be genetically engineered to do their job with greater efficiency, as that fits the American modus operandi.

Most of these measures are not "green" in the Alpha Centauri economy sense of the word; they aren't conservation measures for the most part (although the U.S. also has a few of those), but technologies designed to mitigate damage caused by unchecked consumption. This seems consistent with the game's depiction of a "Cybernetic" future society.

	03-04-2004 02:12									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Commy Finally, a person who believes the US is doing a democracy. Never said it wasn't corrupted, but there is no thought control either. If there was, my neighbors wouldn't be vandalizing eachother's houses. Come on people, just because the politicians are trying to lead a country of fascism deosn't mean we are actually doing a thought control.

No, but the US is getting there. Enough so to be classified as such.

	03-04-2004 03:48									#46
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quote: it provides steady and stable growth with remarkable efficiency

europe and efficient in the same sentence.


Europes pollution output is just as bad as any others and not much is being done about it so i wouldn't say we're running green. Maybe -3 effic instead of Lal's -1 so even with demo we're still slowly slowly doing not much

	03-04-2004 06:51									#47
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Free welfare is not a planned economy. The most important requirement to get into the European Union is to be doing a free market. I'm not saying the EU is perfect, but I feel we can all assume that most of Europe is doing something at least very similiar to a free market. Same for U.S.

	03-04-2004 13:09									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski But the purpose of the syndicate is to organise, not to command or direct. Its not the same as a labor union.

I think you are also mixing terminology with "working definitions" which is leading to confusion on my part; suffice to say that hair-splitting of this sort is probably only interesting to us (and maybe not even that interesting for us). Shall we leave it be (or continue elsewhere?)

quote: Originally posted by Jamski Demo/Planned/Survival/Eudaimonic sounds about right to me, anyway.

At least we agree on that much

	03-04-2004 13:16									#49
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So far I agree with Comrade Tassadar and Lazerus.

Ppl tend to forget that democracy and capitalism DO NOT go hand in hand.

	05-04-2004 12:07									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Ppl tend to forget that democracy and capitalism DO NOT go hand in hand.

*nod*

And that sometimes autocracy and capitalism do.

	06-04-2004 03:35									#51
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Capitalism, Socialism, Plutonancy, who cares.

Best government, democracy. Or even better, any government with freedom and and a good leader, or leader. Best economy, free market. Feel free to disagree with me.