09-04-2004 08:03									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Midget*Toilet This is even with my 700+ unit army (Russia has a 1,250+ unit army).

700/1250 units? What level are you playing and what size map?

Can you post a save? I'd love to see the logistics of your empire.

	09-04-2004 08:05									#32
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I think that the simplest way to do this is to change the stacked movement option. As it currently is the stacking system still makes you watch every unit move. i would really love to see them move as one animation. this would not fix the problem when there is a battle, but it would still speed up the the game considerably.

	10-04-2004 06:46									#33
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Oh, so they're just getting bored with moving units all over the place? Thought it had to do with turn speed.

	10-04-2004 08:47									#34
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Bingo...

When you have to resolve combat and movement for 10-15 units on a turn, it's bearable - even enjoyable.

When you have to resolve combat and movement for 70-100 units on a turn, that becomes a waste of time - and then having to repeat the same thing each turn after just makes it worse and worse. The pseudo-group movement command helps somewhat, but frankly, resolving a battle for 50 units one at a time ends up becoming pure tedium - especially since there are enough games out there that handle movement and resolve combat more efficiently (re: stacked/combined arms combat)

And that is the crux of it - there is no excuse for civ3 not to have evolved in this area of gameplay.

Having a fast computer makes little difference in this area of combat resolution. And telling someone to quit whining and get a faster computer might not be financially feasible for that person...

	13-04-2004 12:21									#35
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Have to agree to some of the previous posters, I generally avoid entering the modern age cause of the tedium. Mostly this is done by adopting an aggresive playstyle that decides most of my games in the middle-age.

Some sort of intelligent stack-manipulating would have been nice. The public works and stack combat in ctp/ctp2 were a nice try but lacked something to become a winner.

I prefer workers to public-works of 'strategic' reasons. Workers that need protection and can be captured adds to the fun in a way those invisible public-workers cannot. Micromanaging all those workers soon gets boring though, I wish they would include stack-control over workers, or some other semi-automated way of easening the MM-burden.

The reason ctps stacking model didn't catch me was the 12-unit hard limit. I hated the hassle of moving armies past each other on crowded roads. Ok, so logistics has always been a major issue in any war or army in history so far, but we have enough of it already in civ. We don't need to intodruce traffic jams as well. That said, some ctp-ish stacking and controlling of units would have been fine. Just have a 'group' option where you moved N units like one(no army bonus). If you attacked(or bombarded) you would get a 'group attack' icon where each additional mouseclick would fire off another round of artillery or send forth another panzer.

Oh, I would also love to split each turn into 'theaters'. It's deadly annoying to select a unit, attack, then jump to a worker on the other side of the globe, then select another attack unit back where the action is..Sorting out ALL battles at the eastern front before dealing with the workers at home or your southern expeditionary force would have been sooo more convenient.

	14-04-2004 03:21									#36
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If you don't like micromanaging oodles of units you can always play for a peaceful win. These days my conquest games are few and far between, for many of the reasons outlined here.

	14-04-2004 07:24									#37
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Oh, I would also love to split each turn into 'theaters'. It's deadly annoying to select a unit, attack, then jump to a worker on the other side of the globe, then select another attack unit back where the action is..Sorting out ALL battles at the eastern front before dealing with the workers at home or your southern expeditionary force would have been sooo more convenient.

this would be a welcome addition to the game. it really unnerves me when i'm in the midst of a big nasty battle and the game shuffles me to the other side of the world, with that worker waiting for me to give him some mundane order...

	14-04-2004 13:55									#38
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Actually the turn ordering better now than it was, but you are right at times it can be a throw the mouse at the wall moment.

	17-04-2004 20:08									#39
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What bothers me is the worker commands. You can't hit a button that clears polution only. If you hit clear damage they run to volcanos. I once said ok they will clean it up and then it won't be a problem. Well the thing blew and I lost most of my workers. In the middle of a war the run to clean bombardment. It's very tedious individually moving workers in the modern age and a distraction while at war. This is biggest complaint with C3C I have. I miss the old clear pullition feature with PTW. I put about 10 on shift A and it makes it not so bad but still I loose some by their stupid movement.

	19-04-2004 02:37									#40
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To my mind one of the major design flaws with Civ 3 is that units don't scale up in cost and power with the eras properly. Hence you end up with too many units in the modern age, as well as other problems like the "tank vs spearman".

Maybe you could mod the later era combat units to be more expensive and also slightly more powerful. This might also simulate the modern era better, in which there is a trend towards smaller numbers of combat units with massive amounts of firepower and incredibly expenisve equipment.

The current way workers are implemented is a mess, imo.

	19-04-2004 03:18									#41
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One good thing about the current unit cost model is that it encourage players to upgrade and keep a modern army.

	26-04-2004 04:22									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 700/1250 units? What level are you playing and what size map? Can you post a save? I'd love to see the logistics of your empire.

This is mindboggling to me. In AU 502 I tried to build up to some fairly massive modern engagements, and only got into the low hundreds of units (although I did experience a 300+ unit AI counter-attack on one city!).

I do not, btw, personally experience much late-game tedium, at least if there is some interesting challenge left in the world. Thus, my long-standing desire and effort to foster the development of KAIs.

	26-04-2004 04:49									#43
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Well I invaded many civs that had over 800 units and 1200 is not uncommon. I attacked one civ (Germany) in the ancient times when they had 8 cities and kill nearly 800 units. Ain't sid fun?

	26-04-2004 04:53									#44
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Sounds like EARLY game tedium...

	26-04-2004 05:25									#45
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800 units...

I would cry

	26-04-2004 06:21									#46
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Not then, but later. Hitting a civ that had over 70 units in one city and it was not the capitol.

Sometimes watching as infantry armies get ground under counter assualts of scores of calvs. Not tedium, just agony.

	28-04-2004 05:09									#47
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Hang on, hang on... vxma1, I think you are confirming something that I saw in my practice Celts game before AU 502.

I played on deity, and had none of the early resource trinity. Quite a bee-yatch... I did take them one by one, but, IIRC, this allowed the development of a KAI two civs distant from me.

When it was their turn (I don't remember who), I took a chokepoint city and loaded it up with my typical mid-game mix: a 3xMusket Army, prolly two Musket+2xMedInf, assorted Muskets, MedInfs, Longbows, etc.

Now, typically, that many Armies just won't get attacked... but the KAI was far enough ahead to have a large and fine military, IOW many many Cavs. AND THEY ATTACKED!!

And you're telling me they'll even go after Infantry Armies, given sufficient numbers??!!

So the problem isn't that the AI won't attack Armies, hmmm?? Rather that the total strength comparison is out of whack?

Well, fine then: All the more reason to face off against KAIs.

	28-04-2004 05:41									#48
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Well the AI will not go after a full health army in the field. It will attack armies in cities, go figure. It will attack armies in the field if they are damaged.

You can even use a bunch of armies to force the AI to follow a path you want them to and lead them into a trap. The armies can get in their ZoC shots and reduce HP's along the way.

If you have enough armies, you can have some that are stacked, kill damage units as they go by, very nasty.

You need at least 10 armies to make it work well. Calv armies are 4x are great for this and you will have lots of them.

BTW Theseus, I wonder now about using mixed armies in C3C. I know that some of the benefits apply only to armies that are homogenous. I don't know if it applies to one move units or not.

	28-04-2004 05:59									#49
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Yeah, there seems to be an anomally there too, re Armies in the field versus in cities.

What do you mean in the last paragraph? I've done mixed unit one-movers, and they are still two-move Armies.

	28-04-2004 07:09									#50
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I am not sure what the impact is, only that I have read many top players mention this effect:

"So, if you load an army with all units the same type (as I've done in all cases so far in this game) and supposing those units are 6/3/3 (i.e. Cavalry) then:

Attack bonus with:
Neither Pentagon nor Military Tradition: (6+6+6)/6 = +3
Pentagon only: (6+6+6+6)/6 = +4
Military Tradition only: (6+6+6)/4 = +4 (rounded down)
Both Pentagon and Military Tradition: (6+6+6+6)/4 = +6

With Pentagon and Military Tradition, assuming you load 4 units of the same type into each army, the net result is to simply double their attack and defense stats, because the bonus is (4*X)/4 = +X Which makes a 4-Cavalry army into a 12/6/4 unit."

	28-04-2004 07:20									#51
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Well I invaded many civs that had over 800 units and 1200 is not uncommon. I attacked one civ (Germany) in the ancient times when they had 8 cities and kill nearly 800 units. Ain't sid fun?

Thats about the time I'd rather beat my head against the wall, because doing that would be more fun than sending those units one at a time into battle.

Please Sid, for the love of God, streamline combat...

	30-04-2004 05:18									#52
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Sorry, vxma1, still not sure what the confusion is.

The math you quote is all correct... for mixed-use Armies just replace 6+6+6[+6] or 3+3+3[+3] with the appropriate values, and divide by 6 or 4 as appropriate. For movement, add 1 to the slowest unit.

Thus, with HE and Pentagon, an Infantry+Musket+2xSwords Army is:

Attack:
Infantry-9
Swords-6
Musket-5

Defense:
Infantry-14
Musket-8
Swords-6

And the Army has 2 movement.

Got it?

And itsn't friggin' AWESOME??!!

	30-04-2004 07:40									#53
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Solutions - animations off, continental rally points, stack moving and a little co-ordination. All readily available
Arty could do with stack bombard, but if the game is set - may as well leave the arty at home and take the tanks out for a joy-ride
Armies = too good to be true, AI needs a little brain on that one (or at least some arty )
Math = armies = waaaaaay too good to miss

Voila - no need to moan