 |
| |
|
| |
|
|
Gagliaudo
|
 |
of Medioevo
Jan 2003
time: 06:17
|
|
@tanelorn: That's all good. I'd like only suggest vawrnos to use ancient cities' names. I'm not Greek, but at school I studied ancient Greek,and I remember something...
@vawrnos: maybe can help, just an add to @tanelorn's precious infos:
***METROPOLEIS (cities and peoples):
IONIANS-
(in Greece): Chalkis, Eretria;
(in Ionia-AsiaMinor): Kyme; ("Dodekapolis") Chios, Eretria, Teos, Kolophon, Ephesos, Samos, Miletos, Priene, Phokaia, Klazomene, Lebedos, Myos;
(other islands): Naxos;
DORIANS-
(in Greece): Korinthos, Megara, Lakedaimon;
(in Ionia-AsiaMinor): Knidos, Halikarnassos, Lindos, Kamyros, Ialysos, Koos;
(other islands): Thera, Kreta
EOLIANS- Lesbos (Mitilene & Metimna)
ACHEANS-
LOCHRIANS-
---------------------------------------
***COLONIES:
-in Black Sea (PONTOS EUXINOS):
IONIANS- Sesamos, Kytoros, Sinope (Sinops? 631 BC), Amisos, Kotyora, Trapezus, Phasis, Dioskyrias, Pithyus, Phanagoreia, Tanais, Pantikapeion, Theodosia, Chersonesos, Olbia (610 BC), Tyras, Histros, Tomoi(Tomis?), Odessos, Apollonia, Anchialos (=Agchialos) (mostly by Miletos);
DORIANS- Mesembria, Herakleia Pontike (by Byzantion or Chalkedon)
-in Bosphoros/Ellesponton:
DORIANS- Byzantion, Chalkedon, Selymbria (by Megara)
IONIANS- Kyzikos, Abydos; Astakos, Lampsakos, Perinthos
EOLIANS- Sestos (by Lesbos)
-in Asia Minor:
EOLIANS- Assos
IONIAN- Eretria (by... guess who?)
-in Southern Asia Minor (KARIA, LYKIA, PANPHYLIA):
DORIANS- Phaselis, Aspendos;
IONIANS- Sydai, Kelenderis, Solis
-in Thrace (THRAKIA):
EOLIANS- Oinos
IONIANS- Maroneia, Abdera
-in Chalkidike:
DORIAN- Potidaia (by Korinthos, Dorian)
IONIANS- Olynthos, Akanthos, Thermai, Stagyros(?)
-in Adriatic/Ionian Sea:
DORIANS- Kerkyra, Leukas, Apollonia, Epidamnos (by Korinthos)
in "Magna Grecia" (MEGALE HELLAS) = Greeks in Italy&Sicily
-In Italia:
IONIANS- Pithekyssa(770 ca.), Kyme (757), Parthenope/Neapolis (by Kyme, near Phokaia, in Ionia=central AsiaMinor); Rhegion (748), Siris(ca 675,by Kolofone in Ionia), Pyxus(7th centuryBC) ; Eleia? (535)
DORIANS- Taras (706 BC by Sparta/Lakedaimon), Kallipolis (5th centuryBC), Hydrus
ACHEANS- Metapontion (703 BC), Sybaris (708), Kroton (708), Kaulonia, Laos (7th centuryBC), Poseidonia (650)
LOCHRIANS- Lochroi(Lokroi?) Epizephyroi (673 by region of eastern Lokris), Medma, Terina, Hipponion (6th centuryBC) (by Lokroi Epiz., with Dorians)
*note about Thurioi: founded in 444/3 BC as panellenic colony by Perikles(Athenian), near the site of ancient Sybaris (destroyed in 510 BC by Kroton & allies).
-In Sicilia (SYKELIA):
IONIANS- Naxos (736), Katane & Leontinoi (730 by sicilian Naxos ), Zankle/Messana (7th centBC), Mylai(716,by Zankle), Himera (648), Tauromenion (by Chalkis & island of Naxos);
DORIANS- Sirakosiai (ca735 by Korinthos); Akrai (664) & Kamarina (598) (by Sirakosiai)
Megara Hyblaia (728 by Megara), Gelai (688, by Rhodos & Kreta), Selinus (628), Akragas (580),
-In France:
IONIANS- Massalia (ca600 BC, by Phokaia), Nikaia, Monoikos, Antipolis, Olbia, Agathe, (by Massalia&Phokaia); Aleria/Alalia (546ca by Phokaians, fleed after Persians conquered Phokaia)
-In Spain:
IONIANS- Emporia, Rhodai(?) (by Massalia & Phokaia), AkraLeuke, Hemeroskopeion, Mainake
-In NorthAfrica:
IONIANS- Naukratis (ca610 BC, Ionians);
DORIANS- Kyrene(by Thera&Kreta); Euesperides,Barke(byKyrene);
-----------------------------
***NOT GREEKS
-Etruscans: called TYRSENOI by Greeks, and RASNA by themselves.
Capua (northern near Neapolis); Hatria/Hadria (on Adriatic Sea)
-Carthaginians: called PHOINIKES by Greeks, PUNICI/CARTHAGINENSES by Romans, (called maybe PELESET in ancient times, in their origin land, today called Palestine...)
Qart Hadasht (latin:Carthago/greek:Karchedon), Ityke (Utica), Hadrumetum, Aspis/Clypea; Kossura (?), Melita;
Panormos, Motye, Lilybaion(Lilybaeum), Eryx,
-others will come... (if interests)
------------------------------
***CITY NAMES
--Not sure: Phanagoria/-reia, Tanais/Thanais, Pantikapeon/eion?, Kypros, Kyrene/-nai?,Kreta,Euboea>Eubaia? Euoboia? Elea?Eleia?
--Quite sure (mostly translating latin>greek): Pithyus, Aenus>Oinos, Khios>Chios, Soloi>Solis, Phasilis>Phaselis, Potidea>Potidaia, Clazomene>Klazomenai/-ne?,Corcyra>Kerkyra, A(m)nphipolis, Therme>Thermai, Ankon (founded by Dionysos I "the Elder",tyrant of Sirakosiai in early 4th century BC), Lokroi(Lochroi?) Epizephyroi, Akra Leuke (Lucentum, od.Alicante)
--Sure: KORINTHOS (Corinth is in USA!!! Damned default civ2city!!! STOP with it,please), Olynthos (see before...), TARAS (latin: Tarentum), SIRAKOSIAI (Syracuse is in Usa,too...), Akragas (Agrigentum), RHODOS (historically, the city called 'Rhodos' was founded by a "sinoikismos": Kamyros, Lyndos and Ialysos, the 3 original and very ancient cities in the island of Rhodos, united themselves in one, in 408 BC, while Rhodians were uprising - helped by Spartans - against Athenians during the Peloponnesian War)
I APOLOGIZE for this large post, hope it can help, or almost be interesting. Have a good work!
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
varwnos
|
 |
Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
|
|
And here are the reworked cities, the colours are a bit messed up though 
@ Gagliaudo:
Very nice info, ty atm i have placed only 50 or so cities, but in the end there will be at least 100 (or more)
Sicily is complete probably, and most of Pelloponesos is as well, other than that and the southern tip of land above the dark sea (not in the map originally, but i added it so as to have Khersona and Pantikapeon) most other areas arent full of cities. I am looking for some detailed maps with a lot of cities, and if possible owners 
the civs atm are as stated, but that can change
the colony supremacy side is acheans mostly, with the adittion of syrakusai (starts as korinthian) later on. the problem is when the game shall be beginning as well, since as things stand most colonies are corinthian or central powers (megara-thebes-khalkis, and it is megara + khalkis that dominate the colonies, thebes is there because it is between the two cities, and later on was very important).
so once again sides atm are:
-Sparte (only Sparte and nearby Helos and the colony of Taras-Tarantas)
-Athena (only Athena and nearby Peireas) (i dont know if there was any athenian settlement in the island of Aegina, we are talking about 7th century bc atm, but the date can change)
-Central powers (Megara, Thebes, Khalkis and tens of colonies)
-Korinthos (Korinthos and tens of colonies, no nearby city though, dont know if that is correct)
-Independants (most of Greece, and probably some cities in sicily and asia minor, just to strenghen them up, not decided yet)
-Miletos (Miletos and a lot of colonies, no nearby cities yet)
Colony supremacy side (the Achean colonies, and Patrai, not sure at all if Patrai existed at the time though)
-
 Attachment: untitled1.gif
This has been downloaded 80 time(s).
Last edited by varwnos on 29-04-2004 at 22:55
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Gagliaudo
|
|
of Medioevo
Jan 2003
time: 06:17
|
|
@vawrnos:
I think I can be a bit useful for you, for the cities you're searching for.
It would be easier if you send me the map (I'll respect your 'copyright' of course! ), so I can give more detailed infos.
However it seems a good work, I think it promise a lot, and I like this period very much.
I was thinking about quite a pair of scenarios, but - don't worry - starting from different basis respect to yours - but I think collaboration in this forum is very useful and beautiful too.
Personally, I learned a lot by you civers, thanks to these threads.
If I can help, I'll be glad to share my infos with you all.
Now I'll read carefully your questions, I can stay at pc in this moment.
See you later, and keep on your nice creation!
|
|
| |
|
|
|
varwnos
|
|
Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
|
|
@Arthedain: ty for your support yet again
@Gagliaudo:
Thank you,
-don't pay any attention to my question about city placement in Rodos, i already placed the three cities
-The map is by mercatore uno
-Basically i am having trouble finding cities for northern and central Greece, since those areas were either part of the kingdom of Macedonia, or were mostly agricultural and cut off from trade, so backward in relation to the south. Atm cities in those regions are only:
-In Epiros
Dodone
(Anactorium probably was roman?)
-In lower Macedonia-
none!
-In Central Macedonia
Pella (Macedonian, probably independant here)
-In the Khalkidike peninsula:
Stagyra (homecity of Aristotle, Khalkidean)
Olynthos (Central powers- Khalkidean)
Potidaia (Korinthian)
Therme (Khalkidean)
-In northern Macedonia
Amphipolis (owner?)
-In Eastern Macedonia
Abdera (owner?)
Thasos, homeplace of Pythagoras, no owner (independant?)
-In Thrace
Anchialos (Miletian)
Apolloneia (Miletian)
Messembria (Central powers)
Selymbria (Central Powers)
Tomoi (Miletian)
Perinthos, Maroneia & Sestos owned by Korinthos
Byzantion (Miletian?)
-In the Hadriatic
Epidamnos (Korinthian)
Some questions:
did these cities exist in the 7th century bc or in the 6th century bc at least?
-Demetrias (Macedonia)
-Phillipoi (Macedonia)
-Anactorion (Anactorium, it is/was in coastal Epiros)
-Aigai (in asia minor, near Phokaia/Phocaea, but in the mainland)
-Herkaleia Latmo (asia monor, in the mainland, relatively near to Miletos)
-Iassos (asia minor, coastal, near Halikarnassos)
Also i am wondering if Sardis should be in the game, and if it is if it should be barbarian or independant (since there was trade with the Lydian empire)
Last edited by varwnos on 30-04-2004 at 03:46
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Gagliaudo
|
|
of Medioevo
Jan 2003
time: 06:17
|
|
@varwnos:
Demetrias is an hellenistic name, the early name was Pagase (I think it existed in 6-7th century, Thessalia was developed).
Philippoi I think is late macedonian (age of Philippos II, Alexandros' father),not sur of this.
Dodone maybe >Dodona
Beware: Megalopolis (if it's the Arcadian one) was founded (by synekismos) in 369 bC by Arcadian helped by Thebans (Peolpidas&Epaminondas) to threaten Sparta with a strong hostile neighbour, suddendly it became greater and important (Polybios was born there, if I remember).
Little question: but... Pythagoras wasn't from Samos ???
Amphipolis was founded in 437/6 bC from Athenaioi, who tried to found a colony there before, too, but Thrakes destroyed their early attempts... BTW,early name of the place in which took place Anphipolis was Ennea Odoi ('nine streets').
That's all for this moment, but I'm really glad to be helpful, and this evenig (latest tomorrow morning I'll say you much, hope you'll like it )
See soon  
|
|
| |
|
|
|
varwnos
|
|
Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
|
|
Pythagoras was from Samos yes! sorry about that, i am confusing where Samos is, and Thasos is (i think) nearby. Hm, the island below Amphipolis probably is called Samothrake, but i still am not sure where Samos is (i am not very good with geography)
as for your info, hm, Megalopolis and Amphipolis are later than 6th century, that isnt very welcome news! The thing is that there dont seem to be a lot of 6th century cities in the north, or in western Greece, and i may have to use cities that were there later on, otherwise those regions will be desolate. What would you prefer?
the positive to this is that most of the game will be centered in Pelloponesos and Attica and south/central Greece, as is reasonable (also in the asia minor coast, and in sicily, and less in italy)
the negative is that there isnt a lot of space in that part of Greece.
Ofcourse i could just use great defences for those cities, so the fighting will mostly have to be done outside southern Greece.
-i added some more cities, but no more than 10, i will have the list in another post, along with the magna grecia and asia minor cities.
-i need some list and placement of:
Etruscan cities (really the ones i have arent checked, there is Rome, and Castrum Novum, and some other one)
Lydian Empire cities (atm there is only Sardis)
--on second thought here is the list now--
new cities:
-in Pelloponesos
Elis (in the south-west)
-in the Hadriatic
Apolloneia
-in Sterea Hellas
Locris-Locroi is out
new cities:
Leuktra
Kalidonia
Pleuron
Koroneia (i think it is new, dont remember if it was in my previous list)
-in Asia minor
Knydos
Kollosaia (i think it was called Kollosaia, its citizents were called Kollassaeis)
Teos (near klazomenai, not 100% sure of the name)
-islands
Samos (found it! its near asia minor )
Kos
List of the Asia minor cities atm:
Lampsakos
Assos (not sure if it was there in the 6th century BC)
Phocaia
Klazomenai
Smyrne (same as with Assos)
Kolophona
Ephesos
Aigai (same as with Assos etc)
Priene
Miletos
Alikarnassos-Halikarnassos
Iassos (same)
Herakleia Latmo (Herakleia epi Latmo) (same)
Knydos
Teos
Kyzikos
Khalkedon
Amissos
Sinope
(and Sardis)
(more are needed!)
-Sicilian cities:
Zankle-Messene
Hmera-Hemera
kaleacte
Naxos
Leontinoi (it is plural, isnt it?)
Katane (not sure if that should be plural, dont know its etymology)
Megara Hyblaea (Hyblaia i guess)
Syrakusai
Akrai
Kannanina (dont know if that was the original, it sounds strange)
Geia
Akragantas
Panormo
Skyros
and Motya (?!) which is in some island (?) next to the western edge of Sicily. Dont know what the correct name should be!
-Italian cities
Reggio (here i am not sure if it is Reggio, or Regkio, both could be correct, not sure which of the two is)
Locroi Zephyrioi (Epizephyrioi)
Croton (or Crotona?)
Sybaris
Thuroioi? (if it is plural)
Herakleia
Metapontion
Taras-Tarantas
Poseidonia
Elea
Neapolis
Kyme
and the etruscan/barbarian cities of:
Rome
Castrum Novum
Vetunonia
Seria Gallia
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Gagliaudo
|
|
of Medioevo
Jan 2003
time: 06:17
|
|
Hi Varwnos, new infos for you:
You can put other Arcadian cities (instead of Megalopolis): Tegea, Mantineia, Orchomenos (yes, another one: I call this...  Orchomenos A, and the other - in Beotia - Orchomenos B  ) or someone else.
Island in front of Heion (on the coast south Of Anphipolis) IS Thasos. Samothrake is more eastern, nearer to Chersonesos Thrakikos.
Asia Minor: Phokaia, Knidos, Kolossai, Pteria (In Lydia, there was a battle between Lydioi and Persai). Smyrne existed, you're right; but it was destroyed between /th-6th century (from Lydioi, or someone else, like Phrygioi or Kymmerioi, or boh? Later it became important another time)
Sikelia: Gela, Kamarina, Himera, Akragas (I'm sure the name you found was badlyt written, not your fault )
allright: Megara Hyblaia, Katane, Leontinoi.
Careful: Panormos and Motye was Phoinikai !
Italia:
Rhegion, Kroton, Taras, Lokroi Epizephyroi(too long for Civ City );
ROMA (!!! I'm Italian, at last )
I've already said: STOP with Rome,Syracuse,Corinth, they're just good for Usa scenario (perhaps new Civil War... )
Then: Alba Longa (Romulus&Remus came from there), Lavinium, Gabii, Tibur.
Castrum Novum seems a bit generic ("new fortress") , I found these city name in some scenarios, but if it existed I really think it wasn't so important.
Etruscan: Vetluna (lat: Vetulonia), Pupluna (lat:Populonia), Tarchna (lat.Tarquinia), Pyrgi, Ilva (grec:Aithalia= Elba Island), other will come later (these are just mnemonic ones).
Goodnight!
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Gagliaudo
|
|
of Medioevo
Jan 2003
time: 06:17
|
|
@Varwnos:
Confirmed cities' names:
THURIOI (careful: founded 444/3 bC by... Palaiologos... ehm by PERIKLES ), TROIZEN, THEBAI, AIGINA, Mantineia, SINOPE, TIRYNS, PEIRAEUS (it's really like this, not latin, but greek), STAGIROS (where was born Aristoteles), Klazomenai; Sena Gallica (but I think was founded late as Roman colony, od.Senigallia. BTW: Castrum Novum - od.Giulianova- was founded as Roman colony in IV-III century bC, too late for your scen).
Other cities:
*asian (no-greek); Thymbra (near Sardis, there was another battle, between Kyros & Kresos, won by the first one, 546bC), Gordios (the old Phrygian king Midas' capital... what a touch ), Alabanda, Pessinus, Daskyleion
*greek asian: Chrysopolis (in front of Byzantion, od:Scutari)
*greek islands: Mytilene - Methymna - Eresos (all 3 in Lesbos), Imbros, Kythera (S of Lakonia), Paros, Andros
*greek sicily: Selinus
*southern italian (native, neither greek or phoinikian or etruscan): Consentia, Manduria, Egesta (=Segesta, in W Sikelia), Eryx (W Sicilia)
***I founded CYME in Eubea (if you're yet interested).
I'll make a map from yours and I'll send you, right?
Question:
At the half of VII century bC there were two war between Greek Poleis (in the same years: ca 670-660 bC): Lelantean war between Chalkis and Eretria for Lelanteion Pedion (a plane between the two cities) and another between Korinthos & Kerkyra (who wanted make itself totally independent from its metropolis). In these wars - which had colonial causes, too - were involved a lot of other Greek poleis, on both sides...
Too many words  for just a little question: will you consider these events in your scenario? I think it's difficult. 
Better I don't tell about First Sacred War... 
See you later, guys!
|
|
| |
|
|
|
varwnos
|
|
Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
|
|
ty
however:
-it is Peiraieys if it has to be something other than Peiraias
-Thebai would be ok, if foreigners knew that b in greek has a v sound, i prefer Thevai
-The homecity (rather a small town) of Aristotle i am pretty sure was called Stagyra, and not Stagyros
-Aigina, ok, anyway all latin ae's are just ai in greek
-Kythera was a city back then? hm, ok! yet anyother island city for the scen then
-Troizen sounds strange, it was probably called Troizena, or Troizene, as you know dorians used "a" instead of "e"
as for events, i am not sure, it depends on what the scen will be about. I think that it wont be event driven though! but you can write any events you like and most probably i will include them
|
|
| |
|
|
|
varwnos
|
|
Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
|
|
Thank you Arthedain i will use those and some of Hobbes ones as well.
proposed governments (change isnt allowed)
-Athena (Democratia=Republic)
-Korinthos (Demokratia=Republic)
-Sparte (Drakontioi nomoi=Drakonian law=Communism)
-Central powers (Oligarchia=Monarchy)
-Independants (Tyrrania=Despotism)
-Acheans (most of them were Acheans) (they might be called Sybaris-Syracusai- i know that no such alliance existed- or colony supremacy side, or Megale Hellas=Magna Grecia) (Oligarchia=Monarchy)
-Miletos (or Ionia) probably Oligarchia, since it would become too powerfull if it was a republic, suggestions are welcome though
Not too sure if Korinthos will be a republic or a monarchy, but it was the richest city of the era, so republic is more probable, also this will make the revolts in the colonies occur more easily.
any suggestions are welcome, Gagliaudo's nation list is an alternative, but this way the individual cities arent the focus, the tribes are, but i am not really decided yet
Last edited by varwnos on 03-05-2004 at 03:11
|
|
| |
|
|
|
varwnos
|
|
Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
|
|
I placed some more cities, and changed the map a bit so as to have:
-Cyprus (3 cities-1 was phoinician i think)
-Naucratis in the upper part of egypt
-Alalia in Corsika-Korsike and Olbia in Sardinia
-3 cities in Cyrenaike, Esperis (Hesperides? Eyesperides?) and two others
-Island cities in the hadriatic, Pharos and Kerkyra (Kerkyra Neotera was my own name for it! Although Kerkyra nea is more fitting)
-a lot more cities in the black see, not in their exact locations since the map doesnt go that north, or west
Generally now every city i know of is in, apart from those in:
france
spain
the azov
palestine
example of what i mean by not placing the cities in the edge in their true locations: the most northern-eastern city on the map is Trapezous (Trebizond) which is in reality a lot more to the east. The most eastern-southern city is Tarsos, which again is in reality a lot more to the east.
some people may not like the distortion of the map that this required, but i think that the extra cities were worth it
Attachment: map.gif
This has been downloaded 36 time(s).
Last edited by varwnos on 03-05-2004 at 05:03
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Gagliaudo
|
|
of Medioevo
Jan 2003
time: 06:17
|
|
@vawrnos:
Careful: Messene was on mountains/hills, not coastal city, and in the position you put it there was Pylos (coastal), and Methone (or Methona, if you want make it different from omonimous Athenian colony on Macedonian coast, S-E from Therme) where you put Pylos. If you want, you may recall Megalopolis as Messene (it seems well defendable, being on hills) even if Messene was more at west - or Ira (the city where Messenian king resisted to Spartan attack in the 2th Messenian war).
Perhaps 'Sparta' (or Lakedaimon) is better than 'Sparte' (for the same reason you told me about dorian -a).
Stymphalos instead of Stymphalis?
Leuktra wasn't coastal: I'd propose you to put KIRRA there: it was an important phocean city, and its pirate activity in Corinthian Gulf was the origin of the First Sacred War (590 ca bC) with a lot of Greeks against that city (which damaged their commerce), 'sacred' because declared by the Delphike-Pylaike Amphizionia (the most important league in Greece from VII century bC). Leuktra became important later (especially after the Spartan defeat). I think Kirra is more related to your scenario.
I found 'Stagiros' in Herodotos & Thukydides, but 'Stagira' in Aristhoteles (Aristotheles?).
He was born there, I'll accept his version .
I know ionic '-e' became '-a' in doric (see the Lakonioi/Athenaioi name: LeonidAs/PeriklEs), however I found Troizen, even if I agree with you that Troizena/e sounds better; well, it's your choice.
I know Greeks read 'b' like 'v', but I knew that - in classical ancient Greek language - the letter 'v' ('vau' or 'digamma') wasn't used... More, 'Thebai' is more similar to latin (better known) version Thebae and (but it doesn't interest me ) to english version Thebes. But...
... But as I can't teach Aristhoteles the name of the polis where he was born, I won't teach you what you'll do with your language and - first of all - in YOUR scenario!!!
We won't turn bad for one or a pair of letters, right???
Sorry for my tedious infos
I'm really interested to your project, so you'll excuse me
Keep on your work! And have a good job!
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
varwnos
|
|
Thessalonike
Oct 2003
time: 07:17
|
|
Hi Gagliaudo
your info's are ok
however:
-the city graphics arent final, they were made by Stefan Hartel and are of the Mycenian period, but i can't find any nice later greek city graphic, perhaps you have come across some?
-I thought it was Methone as well (the coastal one) but couldnt find where Messene was, i will rename Messene=Methone and Megalopolis=Messene
-It must be Stymphalis, since one of the athloi (great deeds) of Herakles (Hercules) was killing the "Stymphalides Ornithes" some hawk-like birds that were in the area of Stymphalis, or the countryside and were attacking people (something like that) The city mostly is there so i can have that in the event when it is conquered
-For the same reason i have "thief forest" units in the Asian minor coast, between Klazomenai and Ephesos, so as to have in an event the myth about how the poet Ibykos died (very wonderful story, if you know it, my absolute favourite!)
-I will change Leuktra with Kirra, but was the i a iota? I will try to have Leuktra as well, not so much for the battle there later on, but because i want to have as many cities as possible
-Atm the nations are as i said, but do you think that this will be very linear? since now the plan is that Sparte (sorry, i dislike Sparta! infact i am not sure that they called it that, but i can be wrong here certainly!) conqueres Amyklai, Helos, Tegea, goes to war with Elis etc etc, the "Champions war" against Argos and so on, and Athena forms its Sympoliteia, which in reality was just an empire. Korinthos is tricky to maintain an empire, the Colony Supremacy side is rather odd sadly, and Miletos also has problems as a nation, since there will be an attempt to simulate the persian wars in this scen (nothing grand in this front though). Hm, in reality it seems a very tall order, but since everyone will be in war with the independents at some time it is possible to simulate the colony rebellions by an independent march outside southern Greece. btw what name do you prefer for the independents?
-Alles Poleis (other cities) (probable name)
The central powers are tricky to simulate as well, the rise of Thebes as the most powerfull city-state, the decline of Megara (wasn't it vassalised by Athena?) and the decline of Khalkis and Eretria (Eretria atm is independant)
Hm, perhaps it would be more interesting to have Leagues instead of those groups, your suggestions are welcome, i just didnt really like the idea of having Dorians, Ionians, Aioleans, Acheans etc, too general i think.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Gagliaudo
|
|
of Medioevo
Jan 2003
time: 06:17
|
|
Hope they'll be useful:
Ambrakia may be instead of Anaktorion (even if northern); Prasiai or Thyraia (northern) - but even Hysiai (not coastal, but there w3as a battle between Argos & sparta) were contended between Sparta and Argos; Thessalia was an important region (with its important cities) but didn't partecipate at colonization cause it was rich of fertile lands (Boiotia was fertile, too, and didn't partecipate ); Aigai was the old macedonian capital before Pella; in Lesbos, Methymna is where you put Mytilene.
Hey, StagirA wasn't coastal.(if you want, you an recall it 'Akanthos', and put Stagira a bit northern).
One of your option for civs - to use tribes - may be good. However is difficult to choice which tribes, and establish believable relations between them (and inside them,too), I'm thinking about it.
If I understood, you want describe greek colonization, but even Athenai's and Sparta's expansion.
Perhaps:
1.ATHENAIOI
2.LAKEDAIMONIOI
3.ACHAIOI+ LOKROI (Patrai, Lokris & C.)
4.IONIOI (Miletos, Phokaia & C.)
5.DOROI (Korinthos, Megara, Rhodos & C.)
6.EUBOIOI (Chalkis, Eretria & C.)
7.AUTONOMOI (Eolians:Thessalia,Thebai,Lesbos + otherDorians:Argos,Messenia + Arkadians)
BARBAROI (Makedones-as Greek considered them..., Lydioi, Phoinikes- if you don't mean make them protagonist as Greek's antagonist-, Italikoi, Tyrsenoi, Thrakes, Persai)
Maybe starting with good relations Spartans/Dorians/Acheans, Athenians/Ionians/Euboians (these two blocks will fight one against other, or the single tribes between themselves) , and Indipendents not protagonist.
Or dividing Chalkis and Eretria (but difficult distinguing their own cities) between two Ionians tribes (Euboians was ionians, too, as like as Athenians), to simulate their scrambles for Euboia's fertile plans. Or dividing also Mytilene and Methymna, to simulate internal division of Lesbos in 7th century bC(reported by poet Archilochos,who partecipated actively in them). IMHO there are really a lot of possible combinations. As always, it will be your choice, it will depend from what you're thinking about protagonists, events, scenario's engine and so on.
See you soon!
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Gagliaudo
|
|
of Medioevo
Jan 2003
time: 06:17
|
|
@varwnos:
I think your mithical infos by events (cities captured) are a nice idea, I like history cause i'm curious too.
I don't remember Ibykos' death, but I'm sure you'll provide
Kirra? Kyrra? In latin is Cirra, but I'll control greek version.
Nations are always difficult to set, no doubt about this, and everyone has to work with just 7/8 civs. An appropriate use of barbarians may be useful, I think.
Sparta? Sparte? I propose a compromise... Lakedaimon! Ok?
I've not yet understand exactly the elements on which you want focus the action. You need make choices.
In a scenario between 700 and 500 bC (or 490 ca if you want give a little touch opf Persian war - even if it could be enough to present the Persian invasion of Ionia, who can say it will be succesfull, in the scenario?... ), I think on some development (historical) lines:
*Lakedaimon: easy expansion in Lakonia and Elis (control of Olympia), bit harder in Messenia (with revolts later) and Arkadia, hard against Argos; alliance with Korinthos and Achaioi; foundation of Taras, fight against south-italian tribes (Messapii); crossing the Corinthian gulf, try to take the control of Delphoi (whose Oracle was politically important) facing the expansion of Thessaloi toward south (historical) and maybe estabilish a foothold in Central Greece, to avoid some hostile power take control of northern side of Corinthian gulf (and that's all historical!).
*Athenai: control of Attike (Eleusis), border conflics with Boiotia(try to take control of Plataia, Oropos and Delios), Megara (now I'll make it independent) and Aigina (as Megara), expansion toward islands (first Salamis - independ., then all the Kykladai) to build a commercial wealth and to grant a wheat-trade route across Ellesponton (eventually foothold in thracian coast - fighting with hostile Thrakes), to permit fooding the growing metropolis; later (very later), foundation of colonies on Macedonian coast, contrast Persian invasion.
*Korinthos: foundation of Syrakosiai (I think you shouldn't divide them) and other colonies (Potidaia), fighting against Sikeloi (in Sicilia, later against Phoinikes) and other Greek (not dorian-Achaian) colonies; Kerkyra is a problem: colony giving lot of troubles and revolts or independent city to scramble with?; found colonies on Epiros' coast; build a huge commercial empire; keep peace with Spartans (better alliance); face Athenai's attempts toward Megara (strategical place).
*Chalkis: foundation of a lot of colonies, in Asia, Chalkidike peninsula, Italia, defending them from enemies (natives and greeks) and let them growing; fight against Eretria (if you divide the two Euboian cities, making Eretria independent or ionian); commercial expansion.
*Achaioi: lot of colonies in Italia, fight with natives Italikoi, then with Tyrsenoi (barbarian) and with not-achean/dorian colonies; peace or alliance with Korinthos and Lakedaimon. Problem: how show intestine conflict between achaian colonies (Sybaris+Kroton vs Siris, then Sybaris vs Kroton)? perhaps giving any colony to another greek colonial civ, or starting earlier the conflicts with other greek colonies.
*Ionioi: lot of cities in Asia Minor, colonies in Pontos Euxinos, later in Italia, Kyrnos (fighting with Tyrsenoi& Phoinikes for Alalia) and in coastal France; face Lydian expansion toward asian coast, and finally the Persian invasion.
*Autonomoi: what put in this mix? I think mostly Eolians: Thessalia, Boiotia (whose rise is really too late for your scen), Lesbos(?), Phokis, Lokris, Aigina, maybe Akarnania (or give it to Ionians, or Athenaioi?) and Aitholia (alternative: make Aitholia barbarian, not so strange, at those time: Greeks considered barbaroi or semi-barbaroi Makedones and Epyrotai, quite the same for Aitholoi...). Problem: Thessaloi fought for a long time with Phokis-Lokris and Boiotia, mostly for the control of Delphoi (which gave the control of Amphizyonia); perhaps it's possible put Phokis with Chalkis and Lokris with Achaioi (so: Chalkis+Phokis fight against indep.Thessaloi+Eritraioi); alternative: delete (or rename) 'city' of Lokris in Sterea Ellas and give Lokroi Epizephyroi to Achaioi (Achean control on both sides of Corinthian gulf is too unrealistic and could make Acheans too strong in metropolitan Ellas). Problem2: what about Megara? It had important colonies (like Byzantion!): let it independent (with its colonies) or give it to Korinthos (for example) or to Athenai? Every solution may be useful to permit new interesting (and historical or not so far from reality) situations, at least colonial wars...
*Barbaroi: well, just said: Phoinikes(eastern & westrn), Lydioi (late Persai), Thrakes, Epirotai, Makedones, Italikoi, Sikeloi, (maybe Aitholians). Large use of events-units.
So:
1.LAKEDAIMON (+Taras)
2.ATHENAI
3.KORINTHOS (orOROI) (+Syrakusai,Potidaia,Kerkyra, etc.)
4.CHALKIS (+Phokis, etc.)
5.IONIOI (Miletos+Phokaia+Ephesos+Massalia etc.)
6.ACHAIOI (+Lokroi, etc.)
7.AUTONOMOI (independents)
-.BARBAROI
Alternative (only tribe-based):
DOROI, IONIOI, ACHAIOI, AIOLOI, AUTONOMOI, PHOINIKOI, ASIANS. Really, I'm think it's too generic, simplicistic, and - most important - too UNhistorical. Tribal distinction were important, but there were other elements, politically and historically more determinant, that can make richer the scenario, too.
And that's all folks! (for now... )
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:17.
Apolyton Time is 00:17. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
14-04-2004 21:32
|
