15-04-2004 19:28									#31
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I would also add to my earlier post that expectations have changed. Before the onset of online forums balance considerations were far less pressing. When I played great games of the past I just played. Now as a hardened gamer I might say the game has potential but balance issues are here, here, here and here, which need to be fixed before the game can be called a success.

As I said above we can all think of games where substance has been forsaken for eye-candy. However as someone who, despite the feathers I may ruffle by poking fun at certain games ( ), genuinely does speak from the experience of many many years of happy gaming, I would say overall gaming today is the best it has ever been. It is always easy to be nostalgic about the past........there were many flaws in even some of the great old games mentioned here; sometimes we just overlooked them.

Sure you have to be careful today that you don't buy Big Rigs and co, but it truly was always thus. Yeah, easy patching can and so often does make companies lazier, but glaring bugs in games in days gone by were often never fixed. Yeah I don't feel allegiance to gaming companies as I would have in previous years, but there are a couple of notable exceptions. Ultimately, when comparing like with like, such as the upper tails of the quality distribution in 2 eras, the good, I feel, outweighs the bad.

	15-04-2004 19:29									#32
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor well i just missed out on the valve generation, i was there with the first silicon though......... Pong/Zx81/Pacman etc - i've played many games on many platforms And i'll keep playing till i'm old and grey

well i have played the "game" of card punching. Not something i ever want to do again.

	16-04-2004 17:08									#33
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark well i have played the "game" of card punching. Not something i ever want to do again.

lucky you!!

And Dr.Spike , sometimes i get a bit harsh on new games and the companies making them.

Remember all the awful movie tie-ins from the 80's !! - hundreds of awful platform/scrolling games would come out, so it was as easy to be ripped of back then.

Still a game was £10 max......ok it was 20 years ago! And atleast these days its the norm for companies to release a couple of patches if the games need it.

Still i stand by my general feeling that things should be better.
We've had 20+ years of gaming experience to help get it right.
We've had 20+ years of hardware and technological improvements to help make the best games ever.

But something in the process isn't right.

As we the fans have become more involved in the process(through game forums etc), we can see that often its not the actual guys programming/designing the game that cause the problems; its the publishing companies/money behind the whole process that seem to be the main culprits in a lot of cases.

I'm actualy as critical now of games as i was back when i started. Its not rocket science to know when a game was good or bad - at least with places like poly etc the gamers now have a place to go to get real non-biased views on any new games, so the stinkers get weeded out.
This is a very important aspect that game publishers should really begin to understand.
We tend to be called the 'hard-core' and a minority of the games buying public, but its funny that that minority can actualy sink a game if its no good(CTP2/Moo3 for example).

IMo until attitudes from the publishers change/relax then THEY are the ones going to loose out in the medium to long run. The game developers themselves loose out in the short run(which is why so many are going bust or are getting bought out at the momment).

I'm kinda sorry for them in a way - we're a tough crowd to please

	16-04-2004 17:32									#34
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Alas CoT, much of the reason why companies don't always listen to the hardcore community is that they don't have to. The relative increase in casual gamers has meant the market reality is that they have more incentive than in the past to aim games towards them rather than me.

I know I annoy some people with my Sunday gamer tirades, but at the heart of the joke lies a painful nugget of truth.

But even so, this development IMO only acts to partially counteract the increase in potential for games - I still think overall gaming is better than it's ever been. Perhaps we can agree that it does not always fulfil its potential however, or potential as serious gamers define it. That's the crux, the gaming world has just changed, and we must accept that.

	16-04-2004 17:39									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike I know I annoy some people with my Sunday gamer tirades

I have no idea who you could be referring to by that.

	16-04-2004 17:40									#36
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I only own three PC games.
Civ 2 (er, the reason I got my laptop ), Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 (both of which Jamski made me buy - honestly - he came round to my house and twisted my fingers until I ordered both ). I had Civ 3, but gave it away without playing it. I may get it again at some point, but maybe I'll just wait until Civ 4 arrives.

	16-04-2004 17:44									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns I have no idea who you could be referring to by that.

Trust Skanky to try and turn a serious debate into spam.

Anyway I didn't think you were one.

	16-04-2004 18:25									#38
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I don’t think the gaming world is actually doing as well as it believes. It’s all short-term gains. Its easy to hide behind figures - there is a lot of money floating around in games, but its not in the right places – not for good long term prospects.

Mainstream is definitely in the casual gaming arena - which is ok, for a while - you'll never build the kind of customer loyalty we have seen in the past with this group of people though. And if you turn out enough naf games with this group, they'll just go find something more interesting to do and spend money on.

I actually want this trend to continue - it will create a much more creative and decent market share for those wanting to produce games for serious gamers again
Whilst moving all the big games publishers out the way. They most likely will jump into bed with Hollywood - to produce those amazing interactive movie ‘games’, a bit like the old 'Dragon's Lair' games, but better looking of course.

That’s my prediction for the next 4-5 years –

	16-04-2004 18:28									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Alas CoT, much of the reason why companies don't always listen to the hardcore community is that they don't have to. The relative increase in casual gamers has meant the market reality is that they have more incentive than in the past to aim games towards them rather than me.

An INCREASE in casual gamers?? With PC game shelf space declining at all the retail outlets where one would expect casual gamers to buy games ( I presume casuals gamers arent driving internet sales)? Youre either referring mainly to console games, or your base is more than 6 years ago, or Im missing something. "The Sims" apart, these last 3 or 4 years havent been great years for casual gaming, I dont think. PC gaming is becoming more of a niche. Or maybe whats happening is that we're losing the "middle" IE we have hardcore grognard wargames sold over the net at one end, and RTS clones at the other, but no Panzer Generals, and too few Age of Kings. We have incredibly complex society simulators like the Paradox series at one end, and Tycoon games at the other, but no SMAC's, and Civ3 was a disappointment. Im not sure how this plays out in other genres. And of course theres no data on "casual game" sales - indeed even the total annual PC game sales is not easy to comeby (anyone here have it)

	16-04-2004 18:39									#40
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You are wrong LotM. PC games today are aimed more at the casual gamer than at any other time in the past. Most people have PCs at home, which has created the market. I wont try and quantify the percentages, because I don't know. That's why I said relatively this group has grown, say, over the last 10 years, and in my view this is undeniably true.

In an aside to CoT I would reiterate that, as much as I don't like it, it is naive to believe the companies are not acting in their own best interests.

	16-04-2004 19:49									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike You are wrong LotM. PC games today are aimed more at the casual gamer than at any other time in the past. Most people have PCs at home, which has created the market. I wont try and quantify the percentages, because I don't know. That's why I said relatively this group has grown, say, over the last 10 years, and in my view this is undeniably true. .

Oh over the last 10 years, maybe. Versus say 1994. But I would guess that PC casual game sales peaked sometime btween 1997 and 2001. Depends on how you define it. Family games, plus tycoon games, plus the Sims? Do we toss in RTS games? Surely not all - lots of RTS players who are anything but casual. Some RTS games? Myst? Pretty popular, but not all that easy (well maybe its just me ) and i think it has players who take it pretty seriously. And where then do we draw the line on adventure games (Not that theyve had huge sales lately) And how about the Railroad/transport games - they seem to have a decent following among hardcore gamers.

My sense is that most of those PC owners either dont own any games, or own one or two. Basically most PC games are still sold to folks who buy several games a year, which is a rather different audience than a family whose total game purchases are "who wants to be a millionaire" and "Roller coaster Tycoon". Now the folks who buy 3 or 4 games a year may not be hard core gamers by your standard, they may be drawn to movie themed games, they may play RTS cloneware, etc. And they play GTA, Halo, etc in droves.


PC games in general have to face the issue that wargames face - how do you draw people into a niche hobby? Hardcore gamers are made, not born. What draws people in?

	16-04-2004 19:57									#42
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Top ten games in week ending 3/27 , US, per NPD

1. Battlefield VietNam
2. Unreal Tourn 2004
3. CounterStrike (something)
4. Far Cry
5. Call of Duty
6. Splinter Cell
7. Flight Sim 2004
8. MVP Baseball 2004
9. Final Fantasy X1
10. Age of Mythology

well, not a game Im interested in, except maybe the flight sim. But are these casual games? Im not in position to say, as theyre mainly titles i dont follow, mainly FPS IIUC. This is not necessarily a typical week - no "The Sims" x packs this week. Its not the top ten list id like - no TBS, the only RTS is not "serious", etc. But its hard to say that those games are being kept out by a profusion of say, tycoon games.

	16-04-2004 20:30									#43
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Nice list, but it really isn't my point that there are more 'casual games' sold, although the Millionaires and Sims fans are fair examples of that increasing trend also. The point is that as a proportion casual gamers make up a higher percentage of gamers than they ever have, and we see this not just in what might be called casual games but in other games as well. If enough people are content to play an imbalanced game just because they are not skilled enough to see that it's imbalanced then the incentive that the relevant company faces to put the work in to produce a balanced game is obviously diminished. And that's just one example. This discussion has touched on the fact that some games can highlight shallow wants over substance, which again is in part a rational response on the part of companies to an increasing proportion of casual gamers.

Once again I'll reiterate this trend doesn't change the fact I believe gaming now is the best it's ever been. As I said it's merely something I see as holding back potential. Unfortunately since it's a rational response to a broadening consumer base I don't see the situation changing.

	16-04-2004 21:54									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Nice list, but it really isn't my point that there are more 'casual games' sold, although the Millionaires and Sims fans are fair examples of that increasing trend also. [/q] Except as i said, that kind of game seems to have hit its peak at least 3 years ago. quote: The point is that as a proportion casual gamers make up a higher percentage of gamers than they ever have, and we see this not just in what might be called casual games but in other games as well. If enough people are content to play an imbalanced game just because they are not skilled enough to see that it's imbalanced then the incentive that the relevant company faces to put the work in to produce a balanced game is obviously diminished. And that's just one example. I can't speak to the extent to which recent games are unbalanced, not having played them. But I can say that Civ2, for example, one of the classics of the "golden age" was massively imbalanced wrt to Infinite City Sprawl. And i will confess i didnt realize that till I heard about it online. Ultimately the best players of Civ2 had to either create artificial challenges, or stick to multiplayer. IIUC Civ3 was much better in that regard. [q] This discussion has touched on the fact that some games can highlight shallow wants over substance, which again is in part a rational response on the part of companies to an increasing proportion of casual gamers. Once again I'll reiterate this trend doesn't change the fact I believe gaming now is the best it's ever been. As I said it's merely something I see as holding back potential. Unfortunately since it's a rational response to a broadening consumer base I don't see the situation changing.

I fail to see evidence of such a broadening base, at least in the last 3 or 4 years, for PC games. PC Game Sales have been stagnant or growing slowly, far outpaced by console games. PC ownership has approached saturation point, at least in the US, and most new PC sales are additional PC's in a household, or replacements. AFAIK the proportion of PC games sold to people who buy multiple titles per year remains the same.

I think our discussion is too abstract at this point. To gain more insight I think we would have to examine the trends by genre. I dont think its really meaningful to compare say, a 2004 FPS to say, a 1999 TBS in terms of gameplay vs glitz tradeoffs. Id be more interested to see if depth has suffered in FPS, and in TBS, and in RTS, and for what tradeoff.I think that "shallow wants" may differ by genre as well - what a "casual" FPS player wants may be different from what a "casual" TBS player wants. Also the impact of consoles differs by genre - I suspect that in FPS consoles have drained off some of the casual players from the PC market altogether, whereas nothing of the kind has happened in TBS, obviously.

	16-04-2004 22:28									#45
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The scientist in me approves of your attempts at quantification. I would add again I am talking about the proportion of casual gamers in the stock of total PC gamers though, so some of your points are still beside the point. I will concede that the trend I believe exists has levelled off in recent years, as the saturation point in the PC market has been approached, but I would say that, although there might have been a drop in the rate of change, the direction is still upwards. I'm talking negative second derivatives not first.

Since your main objection is whether or not the trend has been continuing since 2001 then maybe we can agree it has slowed down but is still continuing at a lesser rate. After all even in a relatively saturated market some people are first time owners, like my gran a couple of years ago. I don't see any justification for believing in a peak in 2001 followed by a fall, though as I say I can see your arguements could quite easily be consistent with a fall in the rate of change.

	16-04-2004 22:58									#46
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ok so out of 22 voters most people dont like playing games from the last couple of years, or they prefer the older titles..........is this a sign that we the 'hard core' are being left out in the cold?

an oldish article that some may like to read link to Chris Crawford being annoyed with the mainstream games industry

He has pleanty more at his site which i heartily recommend to all people serious about their games.

	16-04-2004 23:07									#47
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor ok so out of 22 voters most people dont like playing games from the last couple of years, or they prefer the older titles..........is this a sign that we the 'hard core' are being left out in the cold?

I'm sorry CoT but it's foolish to expect anything else from that poll. People haven't always played very recent games, and sometimes cannot even if they want to. To draw a conclusion that recent games are forsaking the 'hard core' seems questionable.

	16-04-2004 23:17									#48
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I know, thats why i did a winking smilie In a place like poly where people who love civ(even as a civ3 newbie, you will find out about the first games) go , i wouldn't expect any other result of the poll - we are by definition of just being here, those 'hard core' gamers - well most of us.

	16-04-2004 23:21									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike The scientist in me approves of your attempts at quantification. I would add again I am talking about the proportion of casual gamers in the stock of total PC gamers though, so some of your points are still beside the point. I will concede that the trend I believe exists has levelled off in recent years, as the saturation point in the PC market has been approached, but I would say that, although there might have been a drop in the rate of change, the direction is still upwards. I'm talking negative second derivatives not first. Since your main objection is whether or not the trend has been continuing since 2001 then maybe we can agree it has slowed down but is still continuing at a lesser rate. After all even in a relatively saturated market some people are first time owners, like my gran a couple of years ago. I don't see any justification for believing in a peak in 2001 followed by a fall, though as I say I can see your arguements could quite easily be consistent with a fall in the rate of change.

Oh i dont say that the proportion of casual gamers peaked in 2001. I was referring only to the casual game genre as peaking then - thinking Sims, RCT, etc. As you point out, casual gaming is bigger than the casual game genre.

Yes saturation still allows for new sales - the teenager (or younger) getting a new PC for the first time, etc. Not much of late adopting luddites though. A few, but not many. I really dont think Firaxis had your grand in mind when designing Civ3 and the youngsters should be non-gamers, casual gamers, middle level gamers, and hard core gamers in about the same props as the base (well leaving aside the games available, consoles, etc)

Which brings us to the big changes of the last few years. I know a family where the adults are essentially luddites - the dad is computer illiterate - the mom uses the PC for email. They have 3 PCs (theyre fairly affluent) The kids mainly use the PCs for online stuff, having outgrown educational and kids games. The games the kids play are what I would call lacking in depth, from the extent I've seen them. So, an addition to casual gaming on the PC? NOT AT ALL!!! All the mindless (AFAICT) gaming they do is on either their Playstation, or their Gamecube. Not to mention that one of the kids is virtually hooked to his Gameboy 24/7.

Now we dont yet have How to be a millionaire on console, although I think the SIms is headed in that direction.


Now again, I know a family that has a PC and no consoles. Their sum total of games is RCT and Who wants to be a Millionaire. Unlike the family above, which buys lots of (console) games, this latter family simply doesnt buy enough games to really impact the market, not even if there are millions more like them.

The BIG market for mindless gaming is likely to be the console (whether or not deep games are also available for it)

	16-04-2004 23:22									#50
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CoT: Ok.

To go off on a tangent TBS is a strange beast. It is one of those genres that, whilst it can benefit from better AI, has not much to reap from other technological improvements. I would be far more amenable to some of the arguments made here if they were made specifically for TBS instead of in a general setting.

	16-04-2004 23:24									#51
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike and sometimes cannot even if they want to. To draw a conclusion that recent games are forsaking the 'hard core' seems questionable.

Played "Quicken" last night, and it will be months at least before i play "pick the PC", I think.

But IF I had the latest hardware, Im QUITE sure that id quickly drop PG2 and Imp2 for Victoria, Simcity4, et al.

So I agree with Dr Spike.

	16-04-2004 23:25									#52
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Oh i dont say that the proportion of casual gamers peaked in 2001. I was referring only to the casual game genre as peaking then - thinking Sims, RCT, etc. As you point out, casual gaming is bigger than the casual game genre.

Well I did try to make the point several times that you had misinterpreted my earlier post as regarding casual games when in fact I was talking about casual gamers as a proportion of the total.

	16-04-2004 23:32									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike ... PC games today are aimed more at the casual gamer than at any other time in the past...

What's a casual gamer?

	16-04-2004 23:38									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike CoT: Ok. To go off on a tangent TBS is a strange beast. It is one of those genres that, whilst it can benefit from better AI, has not much to reap from other technological improvements. I would be far more amenable to some of the arguments made here if they were made specifically for TBS instead of in a general setting.

Well you can crunch alot more numbers in a given period of time now then you could 6 years ago. Of course that could tempt folks to add in the kitchen sink instead of designing an elegant game (is that not what happened with MOO3 to some extent?) The games that come to mind are of course the Paradox series, thougth theyre technically RT.

Question to game experts and techies: Could say EU2 have been released for the hardware generally available 5 years before it was actually released?

	16-04-2004 23:42									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Well I did try to make the point several times that you had misinterpreted my earlier post as regarding casual games when in fact I was talking about casual gamers as a proportion of the total.

Yeah, but I still think that actual presence of casual games in the market is a decent indicator of the presence of casual gamers.


"Hey, Pa, now we've finally gotten a PC to email the kids, why dont we buy a game?"
"Yeah Ma, maybe we could buy a game based on a popular TV game show, or one about building Golf courses - you know how I love golf!"
"Nah, Pa, I think we should buy Civ 3 now that they've dumbed it down. And I hear the recent FPS' arent as deep as the old ones used to be"

	16-04-2004 23:46									#56
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Some of the paradox games would for sure have been impossible 5 years ago.

	16-04-2004 23:48									#57
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LotM,

I think deep down you miss that 'hole punch' game you used to play (i dont really mean it of course)

Tonight i will be playing Magic The Gathering(Microprose)[1990ish?], having just re-discovered it recently(like i hadn't played it for over ten years!), it is relegating my fancy mainstream xbox games to collecting dust

	16-04-2004 23:58									#58
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor LotM, I think deep down you miss that 'hole punch' game you used to play (i dont really mean it of course)

oh, I dont dislike proving things with numbers on computers - Love that! Just a lot easier since you dont need to run cards through a key punch machine, to tell the computer to do something. (you miskeyed one letter - oh sorry, you have to toss the card and type it out again, no way to erase a hole. Wait, you didnt actually find that there was an error till your the computer got around to running your batch job sorry! Now you have to go back through your whole pile of cards to be sure where the error was. Oh, and there could be an error just cause the cards got out of order.
Compare that to the tools available today!!!)