29-04-2004 22:51									#31
	Inflate your Upload Space

I fail to see how any of these games are dissimilar enough to cause people to praise one and damn another.

I've played C&C, C&C2, Starcraft, Warcraft, Warcraft 2, Warcraft 3, Dune 2, Dune 2000, Dune Emperor, and they are all just the same.

I play them though to see the stories for the different sides and try all the units, and they are quite entertaining, but since the only differences are cosmetic (they all have basically the same control systems and strategies) I fail to see how people can argue about one being superior to another.

Probably I'm missing the strange and deep subtleties, but I doubt they are that strange or that deep.

-Jam

	29-04-2004 22:53									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I hate it when I agree with you Jamski

	29-04-2004 23:05									#33
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You can't help being a smart lad.

-Jam

	29-04-2004 23:11									#34
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Jamski I fail to see how any of these games are dissimilar enough to cause people to praise one and damn another. I've played C&C, C&C2, Starcraft, Warcraft, Warcraft 2, Warcraft 3, Dune 2, Dune 2000, Dune Emperor, and they are all just the same. I play them though to see the stories for the different sides and try all the units, and they are quite entertaining, but since the only differences are cosmetic (they all have basically the same control systems and strategies) I fail to see how people can argue about one being superior to another. Probably I'm missing the strange and deep subtleties, but I doubt they are that strange or that deep. -Jam

Jamski I'm sorry but it just reflects your ignorance of the genre in MP. To a non-RPG fan I bet all RPGs look the same, whereas I'm sure you would post a lengthy reason why they aren't should someone make that claim. All civ games look alike to someone that doesn't play TBS and appreciate the differences between various versions. Sure much is the same between games in many genres, but the devil, as always, is in the detail. It is those fine points, those distinctions, that can make one game great and another mediocre.

	29-04-2004 23:22									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Come on. Less than 5% of gamers play MP, and that's a simple fact.

I have played these games though, some of them a lot, and I'm not saying they're crap. I think its kind of nice to switch from one to another and use the same controls, same strategies etc, without having to learn a new system. But you can't say Warcraft 3 is poo, and C&C Generals is great. The games are sooo similar.

Its just a matter of taste as to which "setting" you prefer.

The fact that I know these games mostly in SP (MP is too much of a click fest for me) doesn't mean I know the games any less.

The original and interesting RTS games are those that break away from the "harvest stuff, build base, upgrade base, build units, repeat" formula, and they are very few.

But who says original is better?

-Jam

	29-04-2004 23:29									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The point is you said you can't see why a person would like one game and not like another within the genre. Many, more than 5%, of the x>y statements refer to MP, where it is particularly true that the games aren't the same.

Moreover it's a stupid statement for SP also, just less so. What if I said that RPG x was exactly the same as RPG y because they both had quests and character leveling and similar monsters to kill. You'd jump all over me if one of those games did what all RPGs do well and the other was a poor copy.

It's not what the games do (there are always going to be shared elements within a genre) it's how well they do them.

So I repeat, I think your statement above that there are no differences within genre just because they are superficially the same is a ridiculous one.

	29-04-2004 23:40									#37
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I'm not saying there are no differences in the genre, but just between those popular Westwood and Blizzard products I listed before.

Its the same as the IE games from Interplay/BIS/Bioware. They're all basically the same, just with some different fluff. Totally different to the AE games, although the same genre and the same settings, the engine and play method is totally different.

On the same theme, MoO is not Civ in space with different units. Its a totally different system. However, Starcraft is Warcraft in space, and Dune is C&C in space. There's huge chunks of code reused, for crying out loud. All they have to do to churn out another game is to make new graphics, new unit stats and new stories.

Ok, WC3 and Dune Emperor saw a move to 3d instead of isometric, but since 99% of the time you never rotate the view anyway, no big deal.

Agreed, you can claim you prefer one game to another, but this endless "WC3 leik totally PWNs SC!!!1!!eleven!!" crap is completly meaningless.

Small differences, that's all...

-Jam

	29-04-2004 23:49									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Well WC3 is different than SC (and the earlier warcraft games) because of the hero focus, which is one example of a distinction your blanket statement misses. The 'small differences' are plausible grounds for people to like one game and not the other.

Also, I would again suggest that most "WC3 leik totally PWNs SC!!!1!!eleven!!" comments refer specifically to MP, and the games are very very different and it is perfectly possible to like one and not like the other.

Admit it, you just made a blanket statement with no thought and now you're just digging. Go on, admit it, I dare ya.

	29-04-2004 23:56									#39
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Well WC3 is different than SC (and the earlier warcraft games) because of the hero focus, which is one example of a distinction your blanket statement misses.

The hero's are just a development on Tanya etc

Not something really new, like the persistant heros in the Warlords Battlecry games. There if your hero dies, you die, its game over.

quote: Admit it, you just made a blanket statement with no thought and now you're just digging. Go on, admit it, I dare ya.

After you admit you're a rabid WC3 fanboi, and you don't want to admit its not soo different to the rest of the pack.

-Jam

	30-04-2004 00:12									#40
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I see you are dodging the MP aspect, which as I say is often the root of comparative statements, even if MP gamers make up a smaller proportion of the total.

I know people that like SC and hate WC3, and the other way around. Personally I think they are both great games, but they are indisputably very different in gameplay terms, and anyone that has played them both seriously in MP will concur I am certain. Since you have posted in the past you have little/no experience in that area perhaps you would miss such a distinction, and post blinkered blanket statements instead.

	30-04-2004 00:19									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Jamski I play them though to see the stories for the different sides and try all the units, and they are quite entertaining, but since the only differences are cosmetic (they all have basically the same control systems and strategies) I fail to see how people can argue about one being superior to another.

I'd add that also for SP I consider it reasonable that things like plot and mission variety are grounds to think one game superior to another. Also the variety between the factions is another key ground when comparing those games on your list.

Are you telling me you can't think of 2 RPGs with the same engine, one being noticeably better than the other? I know for a fact you can.

	30-04-2004 00:22									#42
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Monster How can I not rise to that bait?

quote: I know people that like SC and hate WC3, and the other way around. Personally I think they are both great games, but they are indisputably very different in gameplay terms, and anyone that has played them both seriously in MP will concur I am certain.

I think they're both good games too, but basically they are the same game. Imagine if you took chess and gave the pieces different moves. It would still be chess, although you'd need all kinds of new tactics, and countertactics.

I suppose you'd say it would be a totally new game if the queen could only move diagonally *sigh*

-Jam

	30-04-2004 00:28									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Since you have not played those games competitively in MP how would you know? People making blanket statements in ignorance is a pet hate of mine, and I wont let even you get away with it. You just don't know what you are talking about. The games share many aspects, but there are so many key differences in gameplay a better analogy is 2 different but related card games. There is nothing wrong with saying card game x > card game y, or liking WC3 and not C&C. This is true for SP and particularly true for MP.

Last edited by DrSpike on 30-04-2004 at 00:45

	30-04-2004 00:53									#44
	Remove this text

What only move diagonally? (edit - ah you realised)

I'm sorry, but your claim that one needs to play these games competetively in MP to see the differences between them only reenforces my arguement that they are all basically the same. A casual gamer will only see that the units have different names and graphics.

And the same with "my favorite darling RPGs". The IE games are all basically the same, which is why I refrain from saying one is "better" or "worse" than another. That would just be my subjective opinion. Of course I've played them to death, so I could tell you all the little differences, but, because I've played them to death (not to mention used the same programmes to read the same codes and scripts in the same languages) I realise that they are the same on a basic level.

quote: here is nothing wrong with saying card game x > card game y, or liking WC3 and not C&C.

Sure. But a SC player saying "WC3 sux" is hardly a considered opinion, just rabid crap.

quote: The games share many aspects, but there are so many key differences in gameplay a better analogy is 2 different but related card games.

You have it backwards. The card games are different games using the same representational materials. The WC/SC/Dune/C&C games are the same game, using different representational materials.

-Jam

	30-04-2004 01:00									#45
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ok I'm giving up now since I have nothing new to add, and I'm disappointed I have to say Jamski. Your post, which I quoted above, clearly said you don't think one can say one game is superior to another.

I have illustrated why one might reasonable argue that one game on your list is superior to another for SP, and especially for MP where many such statements are made.

	30-04-2004 01:06									#46
	Suffering from ads?

quote: I have illustrated why one might reasonable argue that one game on your list is superior to another for SP, and especially for MP where many such statements are made.

And I have dismissed your arguments. But the aim was never to convince you, was it? I'm sure you didn't expect to make me change my mind either.

Tell you what though.

I'll play SC all night, and WC3 all day tommorrow and think about what you've said. Chances are I still won't spot any radical differences, but you never know.

The main disagreement, I fear, I that I would look at a 2-up-2-down terraced house and a mansion and say "They are the same" as they operate in the same way.

You would point out that the mansion has an indoor toilet.

That's about the crux of it, yes?

-Jam

	30-04-2004 01:20									#47
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No, the crux is that you made a stupid blanket statement.

It is perfectly reasonable to say SC (say) has more varied races and better campaigns than WC2 (say), so it is superior. The games are similar for sure, but someone could perfectly reasonably think one is superior to the other. You said it wasn't.

In MP the difference in gameplay between SC and WC3 in MP is huge. Some people *even in this thread* have said they like one and not the other. Since you haven't played those games sufficiently in MP you wont understand why your blanket statement is wrong, yet that wont stop you arguing about things you haven't experienced. Bad form IMO.

	30-04-2004 01:54									#48
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sorry Dr. Spike, but Jamski is right.

If you have to play multiplayer to see these differences....are they really that different?

	30-04-2004 02:00									#49
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: PS - what does w00t mean?

It is a rough Aramaic translation, meaning "Yay!"

quote: warcraft 2 warcraft 3 STARCRAFT IS KING!

Starcraft is CRAP!!!!!

	30-04-2004 02:01									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Tassadar:

Well then having seen the arguments Jamski could qualify his original statement in the post I quoted to make it solely for SP, which would remove my main objection, instead of arguing in an area he has no real idea about.

Furthermore did you read the posts? For SP I repeatedly said things like:

It is perfectly reasonable to say SC (say) has more varied races and better campaigns than WC2 (say), so it is superior. The games are similar for sure, but someone could perfectly reasonably think one is superior to the other. You (Jamski) said it wasn't.

	30-04-2004 03:35									#51
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Furthermore did you read the posts?

No

	30-04-2004 10:36									#52
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Simply put, jamski is wrong and drspike is right.

but we still ove u jamski~

in a non homosexual and 100% brotherly way of course
*slaps butt

	30-04-2004 12:27									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Aw, gee thanks Zero

We love you too

Naturally in a totally ungay way
* Jamski smacks Zero in the head with a football *

-Jam

	30-04-2004 13:38									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Awww, you two, can I be best man?

	30-04-2004 14:08									#55
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Zero is clearly from New Zealand.

	30-04-2004 14:23									#56
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Jamski I fail to see how any of these games are dissimilar enough to cause people to praise one and damn another. I've played C&C, C&C2, Starcraft, Warcraft, Warcraft 2, Warcraft 3, Dune 2, Dune 2000, Dune Emperor, and they are all just the same. -Jam

Give me one of them then!

	30-04-2004 14:36									#57
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sure. I'll do a straight swop for any other game from the same year, and of the same quality.

Seriously.

-Jam

	30-04-2004 14:51									#58
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I've already told you that I only have 3 games (well, I've got Civ 2 vanilla and MGE so 4). You wouldn't want to deprive me of asking you about Baldur's Gate would you? You really need the extra posts, and are damned knowledgeable to boot!
You've got all my (huge collection of) games already!

I'll send you Minesweeper on a CD.....

	30-04-2004 15:30									#59
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'd personally stick by WC2 till death do us part. Starcraft was annoying as hell, and not as fun. I guess I'm kind of douche in games, b/c environment matters to me. I liek WC2, b/c of the whole fantsy type thingy it had going. It may sound stupid, but I just didn't find StarCraft fun or believable.

	30-04-2004 15:50									#60
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Tbh from that list I'd pick (surprise!) WC3 for you Duke. Nice varied missions and a small RPG component (and RPGish plot) will make it more suitable than the more mainstream RTS games.