03-05-2004 05:31									#91
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Which is one reason to doubt the premise that 'Poly is any indication

	03-05-2004 12:06									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov They seek to be hired by Arab governments - not by US.

Another strawman. Who told you they sought this by writing the letter?

Everyone knows that expressing worries towards the situation in ME is unjustified and biased. Bush is handling the situation like a pro.

	03-05-2004 19:50									#93
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It's amusing that after decades of having to put up with childish, "The US gov't/ media is being controlled by the Jews", Sirotnikov seems to be eager to fight back with cries of, "The UK Establishment is being controlled by the Arabs!".

	04-05-2004 03:02									#94
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Yeah I thought that was funny.

Then again there are the Israelis who who whine about how badly the Jews were treated (progroms, thefts, violence, lack of civil rights etc.) and yet are quite happy to do the same to a bunch of powerless Arabs.

That's not so funny..

Anyway, the same people blamed Galloway for being in Saddam's pocket and that turned out to be rubbish.

	04-05-2004 03:21									#95
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But documents were unearthed! Documents!

	04-05-2004 03:55									#96
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Yes, they are going to find 52 FORMER diplomats who are EXPERTS in the MIDDLE EAST who, despite not being professional diplomats any more, have NO TIES TO THE MIDDLE EAST.



Talk about spin. Oh, they are just liars, paid by Arabs to undermine things.

What newspaper was that? The Telegraph. No ax to grind there, eh?

	04-05-2004 20:59									#97
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How many people here actually know a diplomat? (not The Diplomat mind)

Anyway, now our American friends are getting in on the act. Those worthless commie traitors!!!

quote: Dear Mr President: We former US diplomats applaud our 52 British colleagues who recently sent a letter to Prime Minister Tony Blair criticising his Middle East policy and calling on Britain to exert more influence over the United States. As retired foreign service officers we care deeply about our nation's foreign policy and US credibility in the world. We also are deeply concerned by your April 14 endorsement of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's unilateral plan to reject the rights of three million Palestinians, to deny the right of refugees to return to their homeland, and to retain five large illegal settlement blocs in the occupied West Bank. This plan defies UN Security Council resolutions calling for Israel's return of occupied territories. It ignores international laws declaring Israeli settlements illegal. It flouts UN Resolution 194, passed in 1948, which affirms the right of refugees to return to their homes or receive compensation for the loss of their property and assistance in resettling in a host country should they choose to do so. And it undermines the Road Map for peace drawn up by the Quartet, including the US. Finally, it reverses longstanding American policy in the Middle East. Your meeting with Sharon followed a series of intensive negotiating sessions between Israelis and Americans, but which left out Palestinians. In fact, you and Prime Minister Sharon consistently have excluded Palestinians from peace negotiations. Former Palestinian Information Minister Yasser Abed Rabbo voiced the overwhelming reaction of people around the world when he said: "I believe President Bush declared the death of the peace process today". By closing the door to negotiations with Palestinians and the possibility of a Palestinian state, you have proved that the United States is not an even-handed peace partner. You have placed US diplomats, civilians and military doing their jobs overseas in an untenable and even dangerous position. Your unqualified support of Sharon's extra-judicial assassinations, Israel's Berlin Wall-like barrier, its harsh military measures in occupied territories, and now your endorsement of Sharon's unilateral plan are costing our country its credibility, prestige and friends. It is not too late to reassert American principles of justice and fairness in our relations with all the peoples of the Middle East. Support negotiations between Palestinians and Israelis, with the United States serving as a truly honest broker. A return to the time-honored American tradition of fairness will reverse the present tide of ill will in Europe and the Middle East - even in Iraq. Because the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is at the core of the problems in the Middle East, the entire region - and the world - will rejoice along with Israelis and Palestinians when the killing stops and peace is attained. Signatories include Andrew I Killgore, Ambassador to Qatar, 1977-1980 Richard H Curtiss, former chief inspector, US Information Agency Colbert C Held, Retired FSO and author John Gunther Dean, former Ambassador to India Thomas J Carolan, Counsel General Istanbul, '88-'92 C Edward Bernier, Counselor of Embassy, Information and Culture, Islamabad, Pakistan Donald A Kruse, American Consul in Jerusalem Ambassador Edward L Peck, former Chief of Mission in Iraq and Mauritania John Powell, Admin Counselor in Beirut, '75-'76 John Gunther Dean, last position held US Ambassador to India Greg Thielmann, Director, Office for Strategic Proliferation and Military Affairs, Bureau of Intelligence and Research James Akins, Ambassador to Saudi Arabia Talcott Seeyle, Ambassador to Syria Eugene Bird, Counselor of Embassy in Saudi Arabia Richard H Nolte, Ambassador to Egypt Ray Close, Chief of Station Jeddah, Saudi Arabia 1971-1979 Shirl McArthur, Commercial Attache, Bangkok Thomas J Scotes, Ambassador to Yemen 1975-1978 Robert V Keeley, Ambassador to Greece Edward RM Kane, CIA Deputy Chief of Station in Iraq

Again, a sensible letter from people who know what they are talking about.

	04-05-2004 23:23									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Anyway, the same people blamed Galloway for being in Saddam's pocket and that turned out to be rubbish.

Yes, I read a couple of months ago that the newspaper that originally reported this was taken to court and admitted that the documents upon which they based their claims were "almost certainly faked". Then last week or the week before that I read these exact same claims again (In The Sun, where else?) being made, with no reference at all to the fact they'd been rejected in court. They'll probably make them again in a couple of months. Gotta let the traitors know they could end up in The Tower at any time if they keep us this pacifism malarky.

	04-05-2004 23:32									#99
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The right have no shame and are traitors to every democratically minded citizen.

	04-05-2004 23:35									#100
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I'll be interested to see if the oil for food 'scandal' goes the same way. Unearthed documents again.

	04-05-2004 23:36									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Yes, I read a couple of months ago that the newspaper that originally reported this was taken to court and admitted that the documents upon which they based their claims were "almost certainly faked". Then last week or the week before that I read these exact same claims again (In The Sun, where else?) being made, with no reference at all to the fact they'd been rejected in court. They'll probably make them again in a couple of months. Gotta let the traitors know they could end up in The Tower at any time if they keep us this pacifism malarky.

IIUC it was only the Christian Science Monitor that admitted that - if the Daily Telegraph has, I havent seen it. Cite?

	04-05-2004 23:51									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The right have no shame and are traitors to every democratically minded citizen.

You know who you sound like? Coulter.

	04-05-2004 23:53									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich You know who you sound like? Coulter.

	05-05-2004 00:01									#104
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark IIUC it was only the Christian Science Monitor that admitted that - if the Daily Telegraph has, I havent seen it. Cite?

Because the CSM did the investigation (refuting their own claims made earlier).

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0620/p01s03-woiq.html

	05-05-2004 00:05									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Because the CSM did the investigation (refuting their own claims made earlier). http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0620/p01s03-woiq.html

from the linked article

"The name "George Galloway" figured prominently in one of the most explosive of these stories. On April 22, London's Daily Telegraph reported that papers retrieved by their correspondent David Blair from the ruins of Iraq's Foreign Ministry described alleged government payoffs to Mr. Galloway, a Labour Party MP and longtime critic of the West's hardline toward Mr. Hussein. The Daily Telegraph report received widespread attention in the European press and throughout the world.

On April 25, the Monitor ran its own piece about papers detailing Galloway's alleged ties to Baghdad. The documents were purported to have originated in the Special Security Section, run by Saddam's second son, Qusay.

However, the Monitor's documents were different in many details from those of the Daily Telegraph, and came from a different source. Monitor contract reporter Philip Smucker obtained them from an Iraqi general, who in turn said he had captured them after his men shot their way into a home once used by Qusay Hussein."


So, in fact the DT story ran first, was based on different documents, from a different source.

	05-05-2004 00:06									#106
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BTW - Galloway is suing the Telegraph for libel.

I don't know about you guys, but the claims are monstrously stupid. It's just a load of FUD to discredit prominent anti-war protesters. I think Scott Ritter was accused of this as well.

	05-05-2004 00:07									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon BTW - Galloway is suing the Telegraph for libel.

and that hasnt been settled, I take it?

	05-05-2004 00:08									#108
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The story the CSM is referring to is an earlier one. There were supposed to be "more" documents found which is what the DT is referring to (they ran the original story too IIRC).

Still doesn't change the fact that it's a ridiculous conspiracy theory.

	05-05-2004 00:10									#109
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark and that hasnt been settled, I take it?

We're talking British Justice here.

	05-05-2004 00:15									#110
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"We also are deeply concerned by your April 14 endorsement of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's unilateral plan to reject the rights of three million Palestinians, to deny the right of refugees to return to their homeland, and to retain five large illegal settlement blocs in the occupied West Bank."


LOTM - all of which was part of the plan Clinton suggested at Camo David and at Taba.

This plan defies UN Security Council resolutions calling for Israel's return of occupied territories.


LOTM - which the US from 1967 on has interpretated as not requiring return of ALL territories. Youd think US diplomats would be aware of that.

It ignores international laws declaring Israeli settlements illegal.

LOTM - which has never been the position of the US govt, which these guys were at one time paid to represent.


It flouts UN Resolution 194, passed in 1948, which affirms the right of refugees to return to their homes or receive compensation for the loss of their property and assistance in resettling in a host country should they choose to do so.


LOTM - there is nothing in Bushs statement that eliminates there chance to receive compensation, etc. Again, it is an identical position to that pressed by Clinton at Camp David and Taba.



I will not argue the substance of these diplomats position - that has been well argued elsewhere - but they are not just taking issue with Bush, but with all US policy wrt to the Palestinians from 1967 onwards. So unless these are diplomats who served before 1967, there is something problematic in their statement NOW.

	05-05-2004 00:25									#111
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perhaps Mr Galloway can sue the Guardian, as well.





http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq...1149796,00.html

	05-05-2004 00:29									#112
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You should read more carefully.

quote: These files do not implicate Mr Galloway in personal corruption. Nor do they suggest that Mr Dalyell and Mr Reynolds, who always paid their own way, had any knowledge of what was going on. Mr Galloway said he was unaware that his financial sponsors were getting oil cash from the UN programme. But he accepts that he knew his supporters had links with Saddam's regime, and regarded that as an inevitable price to pay. Despite their importance in the bitter Galloway controversy, the contract documents seem unlikely to surface in the pending libel trial.

	05-05-2004 00:38									#113
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Agathon
You should read more carefully.

well it does confirm that the Iraqi regime supported what Galloway was doing, whether he knew or not. And while they dont prove he knew, I dont know for sure that he didnt.

	05-05-2004 00:45									#114
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Yeah, but there's no reason for him to sue the Guardian since they didn't attempt to slander him.

The Murdoch papers and the Torygraph are somewhat different. Both are mere political mouthpieces for the most repugnant people in our society.

Not one of Murdoch's papers opposed the war. What does that tell you?

	05-05-2004 00:47									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Yeah, but there's no reason for him to sue the Guardian since they didn't attempt to slander him. The Murdoch papers and the Torygraph are somewhat different. Both are mere political mouthpieces for the most repugnant people in our society. Not one of Murdoch's papers opposed the war. What does that tell you?

er, that Murdoch supported the war.

	05-05-2004 00:51									#116
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And that editorial independence simply doesn't exist at his papers. They exist to make money and push Murdoch's political line (which is that whatever makes him money is good for everyone).

Murdoch is about the lowest, most despicable scumbag in existence. Saddam Hussein has a better character than he does. Ask any Liverpool FC supporter what they think of Murdoch.

	05-05-2004 00:57									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Murdoch is about the lowest, most despicable scumbag in existence. Saddam Hussein has a better character than he does.

Res ipso loquitur.

	05-05-2004 01:06									#118
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[pedant]I'm not a Latinist, but don't you mean ipsa. That doesn't appear to be an ablative to me.[/pedant]

Anyway, to me pragma legei hautoi, he de autou phone kake estin

Last edited by Agathon on 05-05-2004 at 03:50

	05-05-2004 01:12									#119
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quasi-mastrubatorium est quod erad demonstrandum.

	05-05-2004 01:58									#120
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Thanks for helping to clear up my confusion, lotm.