06-05-2004 22:28									#31
	Full PM-box? Change here!

What I propose we do is either today or tomorrow, meet in chat with PAL, send a full delegation (as many Apolyton people as possible) and we verbally pledge and "shake" on a full and complete alliance with PAL. We say it officially and formally in front of all of them and in front of all of us, and we only draft documents after the fact if they want something in writing.

We will need nothing in writing from them. Frankly, I don't think that putting it down in writing is going to matter at all to them, it won't dissuade them from breaking the alliance, and we're not going to be arguing over the letter of the treaty later on with them if we want to do something and they want us to do something else.

There is some value and ceremony in a written treaty, and if we sense that they would like to include that in the process, I propose that we give them the following (and invite others to further modify it)

GRAND ALLIANCE OF APOLYTON AND THE PEOPLE'S ALLIANCE OF THE LADDER

Both teams hereby swear an oath of unity and brotherhood. For the purposes of this game we hereby declare that we will fully and openly work together and do everything in our power to acheive our common goals: the elimination of all teams not a part of our alliance and the strengthening of our great empires.

We will cooperate in all matters of science, economy, and military. We will share our knowledge and our industry to the benefit of the greater alliance.

No team or alliance shall stand against us. Together, we will move forward to the final game and together, we will be victorious.

--Togas

	06-05-2004 23:36									#32
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Togas

I am glad you "get it".

This is exactly my feelings how we handle PAL.

Going back and forth on some amateur legal document was NOT going to send the right message, which I was trying to explain several nights ago in chat but mostly it fell on deaf ears.

Quite frankly the Arnelos approach would have had a better than 50-50 chance of ENSURING a PAL-CDG alliance.

No offense Arnelos, thats just my take on the situation, hence my "just make a decision" the other night vice "Lets discuss this to death, and discuss it to death with PAL."

But thats just MHO, from talking to those guys and hanging out at the ladder site every once in a while.

But with that being said I think we need to begin moving forward on the issues that were brought up. ie like sharing barb workers. I can begin to work those issues as soon as we tell them its a go.

	07-05-2004 02:13									#33
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I will continue to respectfully disagree about the need for us to discuss some of these issues internally. The extent of the groupthink here is amazing to me.

My objection is what I see as the team railroading itself into doing everything and anything that PAL wants rather than stepping back and seriously asking itself whether it wants to do each of these things. After a while, we start doing things merely because PAL wants us to. That's all fine and well as long as we can trust PAL and we really will remain friends of PAL through Game 1.

However, I question whether PAL will indeed remain our friends through all of Game 1, regardless of the circumstances. This is a critical assumption that it may be an error to rely upon.

I'm not saying that an alliance with PAL is the wrong idea, I'd just prefer that we went into it with our eyes open and while trying to head off potential vulnerabilities down the road rather than only considering the immediately visible relationships. "I've been paranoid and I've been right. I prefer to be paranoid."

	07-05-2004 02:31									#34
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I think we'll be ok trusting PAL in game 1. The only situation where I'd be a bit worried: the other continent unifies, starts preparing an invasion force, and sends PAL a message to this effect "Would you like to help us kill Poly? Or wait for us to land on your shores and make them the same offer?"

Bottom line: Don't let up on the defensive production.


Besides, I think universal dislike of GWT will carry the alliance post-CDG.

	07-05-2004 04:17									#35
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One point I'd like to make is that I DO NOT think we are (or should be) making a complete and total agreement to all of their proposals. I don't mind sharing techs, but I do mind having them directing our diplomacy or having to get approval to do NAPs, etc.

I also don't want to overly complicate this arrangement as it will tie our hands far too much.

We should agree to ally in SPIRIT, and work out the details as we go.

--Togas

	07-05-2004 04:32									#36
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Just read the latest chatlog between con and F-P.

Well, it looks like we're heading into this alliance head first, so we might as well lunge everything we have into it.

That said, I'm glad Togas agrees that we shouldn't agree to EVERYTHING PAL wants us to do merely because PAL wants us to do it. There's a difference between being an alliance among equals and an alliance between superior and inferior partners.

As for the alliance, if PAL will agree to the things con brought up, we should do it. It won't make someone like me any less paranoid, mind you, but it may very well simply be a risk we're going to take and just take whatever consequences the world throws at us.

I would suggest, however, that we start discussing now how we should handle the timing of any war with CDG, the timing of the aftermath, and what our building and military buildup programs should be during those periods, as to minimize our appearance of "weakness" when compared to PAL. As long as we appear strong, we can minimize the risks.

There may be some other things that we might consider as well... who is going to be doing the heavy lifting when it comes to knocking CDG out? What happens if CDG tries to rush either Apolyton (more likely) or PAL (less likely)?

Many things to discuss.

That said, I'd say that the matter of whether we will ally with PAL has effectively now been decided. There's little use in questioning it anymore, but still much use in questioning how we go about it.

	07-05-2004 05:41									#37
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Arnelos

No one has asked you to not be paranoid.

The name of the game here is survival. And survival belongs to the paranoid.

This has been discussed for two weeks. The team has voted to ally with PAL. So like you said it doesn't apy to fight it.

But we need to keep working the issues, we agree on that, and we need to get REXED out so we can stay at least "average" to PAL militarily. We can agree on that as well. Camps, camps, camps and more camps

And you and orzmud and BFM and anyone else who has volunteered to help have to get area X up and running so we know almost as much about PAL as they do.

Ditto on the MOI. GK and Krill need to step up to the plate and keep hitting homeruns so we dont get hopelessly behind.

I need to read between the lines and pick up on any nuances in the change of tone of communication especially after CDG is gone.

If we do the things Apoly is good at we should appear strong enough where PAL will be happy to keep us around and get rid of one of the other two if they dont do the job themselves.

	07-05-2004 05:42									#38
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Arn, I agree. One point though, we should disagree to just disagree however. I think that PAL being new to this arena, they will not be making many 'demands' on us, so I suggest that we try to not make many on them either. We are partners, we share, but lets communicate at a minimum and just lets things go.

	07-05-2004 19:46									#39
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I think I've figured out Apoly's strategy.

Bury them in paperwork so they won't see our armies coming.

	08-05-2004 08:12									#40
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I have to say I'm puzzled, Arn. No-one has ever said anything about agreeing to everything PAL wants us to do throughout the alliance. I and Togas (and others) have refuted it several times as well. Where does such an idea come from? Sure we don;t want to head down the path of agreeing to everything they say just to keep them happy, but neither do we want to give them cities for free. Doesn't mean I seriously consider that either will happen, especially seeing as we have absolutely no track record anywhere of agreeing to everything from another team.

* MrWhereItsAt looks forward to the announced time for the chat