14-05-2004 00:08									#61
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quote: i personally, however, would like to see more of them take the step of making their company their livelihood by tying their financial fate to the fate of their company.

A lot of them do... mostly by taking stock options instead of high salary.

quote: Do you have any reason to think that CEOs are doing a vastly better job now and are far more important to the success of their corporations than they used to be, while the workers are no better and no more important than they used to be?

The thing to look at is supply and demand. Good CEOs are in greater demand because of the crap CEOs which have tanked companies in the 90s. You want a great one and to do so, you have to pay a lot for it.

	14-05-2004 01:32									#62
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Hmmm... Picked up this conversation late.

quote: isn't the economy supposedly in bad to stagnant shape right now and the job market is overall bad?

No, the economy is growing at a very healthy clip. The job market is perking up. 625,000 jobs added in the last two months.

In any event, corporate profits are going up as fast as those CEO pay packages. Mind you, profits were at historic lows versus sales before and during the recession. So it's more a matter of them coming back into the reasonable range.

	14-05-2004 01:46									#63
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And either how, overall wages and benefits appear to have been growing at a healthy pace too, even during the recession. (in case no one mentioned it before - didn't really bother to read the thread - data: http://bls.gov/news.release/eci.nr0.htm )

	14-05-2004 01:52									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And looking for their interest, like anybody does in a capitalist system. Is it any surprise that unaccountable people, who decide of their salaries, raise their salaries? Well, it doesn't surprise me. I don't even think they are evil to do so. I happen to think, however, that they need to be held accountable, so that it is not possible for them to (rationally) abuse their power. There is scum among execs, but they aren't all scum. However, save for a few business-monks, they are self serving and look for their interests first. Hence the importance of making them accountable.

[/QUOTE]

Everyone looks after their interests first. And you suck at quoting posts.

	14-05-2004 02:18									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Yes, corporate profits have nothing to do with individual earnings...

OK, in fact they do... for CEO's and other officers. Their packages are tied largely to corporate profitability. Since CP has increased since Q4 2001 (your cite), then CEO pay should be expected to rise accordingly. So what's your beef? These people are doing their jobs and are getting paid for doing their jobs.

	14-05-2004 02:26									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns He put the capital up for the movies he made, he took the risk on himself and the community payed him the money through sales of the movie. The money he received is in direct proportion to the sales made.

For starters, 20th Century Fox put up most of the financing on the Phantom Penis. Granted, Lucasfilms did finance Attack of the Clones, but George's biggest year came when he was sucking off the teat of 20th Century.

Regardless, the community pays the CEO of McDonalds through sales of hamburgers. If hamburger sales goes up, with a corresponding increase in profitability, the CEO gets a raise (granted by the board - it's not like Officers of public companies control their own salaries and benefits as so many people erroneously believe).

Linked is a list of all the people involved in the making of TPM: There are over 600 people involved in the creation of the film to the point where they earn a credit, plus the janitors and the like. Why are we not hearing how they got robbed by GL when he grabbed all the profits ($400 million worth!) for himself? By my calculations GL could've paid himself a comfy $10 million and given an addition $630,000 per crew member.

Who's crying for them?

	14-05-2004 02:31									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed the few that stand out in my mind for doing this were iacocca (chrysler, 80's) and jobs (apple, 90's) who both took minimal compensation while their companies were tanked. iacocca took $1, while jobs i believe took nothing.

Your examples are flawed in the fact that both Iacocca and Jobs took deferred salaries. Not only did they get paid their back salary once they turned the companies around, they loaded up on the stock options when their companies were in the most critical conditions.

Hell, for three years running in the late 1980's Iacoccoa was in the top 3 of "most highly paid CEO's"... one year he earned near $30,000,000 (I'll have to verify that figure when I get home but it sounds about right).

	14-05-2004 02:34									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And looking for their interest, like anybody does in a capitalist system. Is it any surprise that unaccountable people, who decide of their salaries, raise their salaries? Well, it doesn't surprise me.

I don't know how it works in France, but here in the US it is the Board of Directors who determine not only CEO pay, but the pay scales of all corporate officers for publicly traded companies. So CEO's are not:

1. Unaccountable to anybody
2. Capable of deciding their own salaries

	14-05-2004 02:38									#69
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Of course, a lot of CEO's also are chairman of the board though.

	14-05-2004 02:40									#70
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So? Doesn't give them absolute power... the board still has to vote on any proposals offered by the chairman.

	14-05-2004 02:44									#71
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Not absolute, but often dominant never the less.

	14-05-2004 03:18									#72
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Well, I wouldn't care if their "outrage" was equally distributed... but it's not. It isn't the amount of money that these people make that bothers the Left, its the "type" of person who makes it that bothers them.

I think I've seen quite a bit of opposition in the OT to athletes whining that they don't get enough money. And I rarely read the OT. A rather unfair and baseless stereotype you are pushing JohnT.

No one needs that much money. I don't care who it is, or how they get the money. When people keep more than they or their families need, or can use without being decadent, that's what bothers me.

My Dad has a PHD in horticulture (not sure what area the exact degree he holds is in). His education level is such that it puts him in a category with ~20 other people world wide in his feild of expertise. He has been gainfully employed for close to 40 years, working 16 hour days harvest season, and not much less the rest of the year. Even with his education level he gets right in and does the manual labor too. When he retires he will have made roughly 3 million dollars in lifetime.

He could have demanded salaries several times what he worked for, and even given himself raises in some positions. But, he choose to work the majority of his life for friends he made and the LDS agricultural holdings which support the LDS welfare system along with tithing and fast offerings. 10% of his earnings have gone to the LDS Church as tithing even. Much of which ends up going to charitable causes. More has gone directly to charity, and not just giving of money, but his free time as well.

With that, we've always lived well, 2-3 cars, owning nice houses, food to eat, even luxuries like a ski boat, hot tub, electronics, and he's helped or helping all his 8 children go to college and get on their feet.

He's done all that on less than one of these CEO's, stars, whatever, will make in a single year. There are countless other hard working people who live similar lives, doing their jobs which need to be done every day, and yet because of our screwed up sense of what's valuable, many of them barely eek out livings. I have no doubt that most people making a ton of money work hard doing a job which is necessary for our economy to function well. I doubt they work harder than the rest who aren't making much money, and who's jobs are just as important.

You can make a lot of money, and still use it well. There are those who do, and good for them. The "outrage" here (from me at least) is directed towards those who live decadently off salaries that no one needs to make, keeping it to themselves (and in some cases going so far as using that money or power to keep others down or further increase their own decadence).

quote: Originally posted by Ming And heck, isn't the number one capitalist, Bill Gates, the LARGEST giver to charity. Your broad sweeping generalizations are just that... but I guess they sound good to you

Charity is always a good thing, and Bill Gates should be congratulated for giving. Having billions of dollars to give away makes it possible to give some of those billions away though. He still has billions, so there is still a lot of room for improvement in that area. (widow's mote)

That's not to say I think he should give away everything he has. Someone who builds a company should be able to keep their interest in it regardless of how much it's worth. I don't see any problem with that. Spending hundreds of millions on a house that represents possible housing for thousands of families isn't very charitable though. Some of the business practices his company used to amass that fortune weren't very charitable either.

That's the way our economy works, but it's not the way that worthwhile people or companies approach business IMO.

	14-05-2004 03:24									#73
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quote: Your examples are flawed in the fact that both Iacocca and Jobs took deferred salaries. Not only did they get paid their back salary once they turned the companies around, they loaded up on the stock options when their companies were in the most critical conditions. Hell, for three years running in the late 1980's Iacoccoa was in the top 3 of "most highly paid CEO's"... one year he earned near $30,000,000 (I'll have to verify that figure when I get home but it sounds about right).

i don't mind deferred salaries so much. if you can turn around a company...

	14-05-2004 03:31									#74
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n/t

	14-05-2004 04:04									#75
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quote: When people keep more than they or their families need, or can use without being decadent, that's what bothers me.

Why? Because you don't get the same amount of money? Why should we care that those people who we've decided are worth that much money bothers you? They make millions a year.... more power to 'em.

	14-05-2004 04:18									#76
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quote: Why? Because you don't get the same amount of money?

I don't want the same amount of money. I'd like it if people realized that everyone is valuable, and that there is enough to go around. I don't expect it to happen.

Anyways, what I want from life for myself has nothing to do with money.

quote: Why should we care that those people who we've decided are worth that much money bothers you?

Not asking anyone to care about my opinion. I express my opinion, just as everyone has a right to do. You can care about it, or argue with me about it, if you want.

	14-05-2004 05:55									#77
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But even though you assert your opinion you want others to agree with your position, right? So why do think we should?

	14-05-2004 05:59									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: When people keep more than they or their families need, or can use without being decadent, that's what bothers me. Why? Because you don't get the same amount of money? Why should we care that those people who we've decided are worth that much money bothers you? They make millions a year.... more power to 'em.

Because I'm spiteful and want a bigger piece of the pie for the average Joe.

	14-05-2004 06:35									#79
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Yeah... yes limit what people can make...

It's the classic argument... poor socialists wanting a bigger piece of the pie then they can earn for themselves... Thank god I live in a capitlistic society when I can work hard and get paid for it... And before you say that some people work hard and don't get paid, who's fault is that. Usually it's because the person wanted to do the job they are doing, or didn't get the education needed to get a better job, or were just too damn lazy...

	14-05-2004 06:39									#80
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quote: Yeah... yes limit what people can make...

that's not what I said at all, and never have I proposed this.

quote: poor socialists wanting a bigger piece of the pie then they can earn for themselves...

actually, my family would probably be in the top 5% of income earners in America... and I'm not much of a socialist. I just believe in bringing fairness to capitalism. It's a shame you cherish inequity and disparity.

	14-05-2004 06:42									#81
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quote: It's a shame you cherish inequity and disparity.

Sava, can't you post anything without resorting to insults and cheap shots?

	14-05-2004 06:47									#82
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I countered Ming putting words in my mouth by putting words in his mouth... sucks doesn't it? Ming's a big boy JohnT, you don't need to fight his battles.

	14-05-2004 06:50									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I just believe in bringing fairness to capitalism. It's a shame you cherish inequity and disparity.

I give to charity, and my taxes go to a welfair system that doesn't work and is inefficient (I'm all for a welfair system... but I'm for one that actually works) I also volunteer my time to charity causes... do you?

So as usual... your lame attempts at an insult are just that... LAME

I believe people should be free to earn what they can. Which to me, is VERY FAIR. People keep pointing to a few bad eggs and using them to trash everybody. No matter what profession, you will find self serving jerks.
Even in supposedly socialistic system, you find greedy bastards who abuse the system. Yeah, some CEO's should be locked up and fined every cent they owe... but that's no reason to begrudge somebody else who owns a company or is a CEO from making what they can.

	14-05-2004 06:55									#84
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quote: So as usual... your lame attempts at an insult are just that... LAME

actually, I wasn't trying to insult... I was putting words in your mouth just like you put words in my mouth.

quote: I believe people should be free to earn what they can. Which to me, is VERY FAIR. People keep pointing to a few bad eggs and using them to trash everybody. No matter what profession, you will find self serving jerks. Even in supposedly socialistic system, you find greedy bastards who abuse the system. Yeah, some CEO's should be locked up and fined every cent they owe... but that's no reason to begrudge somebody else who owns a company or is a CEO from making what they can.

wow you and I totally agree.

But my point is that not all the scumbags are being punished. Our Justice Department, led by Ashcroft, investigates more abortion doctors than corporate criminals. And how many convictions do we get? One or two? Corporate crime and corruption costs BILLIONS of your and my tax dollars. But I see a lack of outrage which is the focus of my disdain.

And please don't lump me in with the commies and others on this board. I have my own unique opinions. If you are going to present an argument, I ask you quote me and not present me with a debate of someone else's opinions or points.

	14-05-2004 07:48									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I have my own unique opinions.

See, we agree on more than you thought

My first comments in my last post were specifically for you... the other comments were directed toward the thread in general...

As for my earlier comment on some people wanting to limit what people can earn, that was directed at everybody who was whining about people that make too much money... people should be able to make whatever they can... as long as it's legal.

And I still hope all of those corrupt CEO's bite the dust.
I have no problem with people making money, I do have problems with criminals

	14-05-2004 07:58									#86
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quote: My first comments in my last post were specifically for you... the other comments were directed toward the thread in general...

quote: but that's no reason to begrudge somebody else who owns a company or is a CEO from making what they can

I just think it's unfair that CEO's make like 400 times the average worker (which is above and beyond a historical record). But that doesn't mean I'd use the government to limit their pay or something. It's just something I perceive as "sucking".

In terms of this discussion, there are many CEO's that probably manipulate the system and companies to get pay they probably didn't earn. But that's just food for thought. I can't name specific people. It's just my perception of things. Perhaps its a misconception; I'm certainly not above such things.

I'd rather use government to encourage small business growth.

My grandfather told me about how things were for him in Italy after WW2. He was a shoemaker. The government set him up with a shop, and helped him start his business. He then paid a higher amount of tax than normal (it was part of a program) for a few years for this. Now that sounds fair. The government in Italy provided opprotunity and my grandfather paid his own way. He was abled to afford enough to move into West Germany with his family, and later came to the United States in 1958.

But I don't see that in America. I see billions in subsidies and pork barrel spending being given to corporate fatcats. I see corporate criminals running rampant and costing us billions. I see average Americans stagnating while corporate profits skyrocket. That seems wrong to me.

	14-05-2004 08:00									#87
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Well, damn Sava. No government gave me subsidies to set up/take over my businesses. Does this mean I'm entitled to a lower tax rate than your GF in Italy?

	14-05-2004 08:05									#88
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Well, damn Sava. No government gave me subsidies to set up/take over my businesses. Does this mean I'm entitled to a lower tax rate than your GF in Italy?

I would like to see similar programs in the United States that allow small businesses to grow and prosper. The larger corporations should be taxed more because they can afford to be taxed more... progressive taxation. That doesn't mean punitive taxation. I think by and large, the federal government has more than enough money to do things. I want to see a more efficient government. That means cutting out pork and large corporation subsidation. That means accountability for pie in the sky defense spending.

And you know what? If government programs can help Americans build wealth, everyone will be better off. We wouldn't even need public health care or social security for the most part. The problem is, we can't get the political establishment to stop playing pork politics. And this is for both parties. There's too much divisive partisan politics and their is too much abuse of government resources and power. But that's just my humbled opinion.

	14-05-2004 08:08									#89
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one more thing... I think the Democrats and Republicans are playing the American public. They divide us with social issues and keep us divided so that we can't have accountibility in goverment. The re-election rate of incumbents in the federal government is high... IIRC like 75% or more.

Republicans play their base against the Democrats, and Democrats play their base against the Republicans. And who ends up losing? The rest of America that doesn't have a real voice in American politics.

	14-05-2004 08:09									#90
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quote: one more thing...

Just one?