09-06-2004 06:10									#31
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Another idea - economic victory could be the economic "influence" (not exactly sure how this is quantified) you have in other countries? Or be in part a ratio between your economic might and total land area?

	09-06-2004 14:11									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Another idea - economic victory could be the economic "influence" (not exactly sure how this is quantified) you have in other countries? Or be in part a ratio between your economic might and total land area?

Well you could have the influence as the amount of trade you do with the other nations/factions, which by its nature would be tricky to maintain(thus making the economic victory a bit more difficult than simply ammassing x amount of resources)?

ApG - love the idea of the decreasing worth of population as time(empire size?) progresses.

Its pretty much standard practise in any TBS/RTS that war/aggresive expansion is usualy the most obvious choice to victory, which in a way in RL is true BUT it nearly always has long term hidden costs that no game really attempts to model - which is a shame as it encourages the player to play very one dimensionaly.
So anything that helps the player choose their playing style has got to be good

And the destruction of buildings in a provence that is attacked could also be a choice of either the Attacker or the Defender? (if the Def player knows he might loose the battle, and wants to ensure the enemy cant use the buildings - or if the Atk player decides he just wants to cause as much disruption as possible and maybe doesn't have enough troops to defend the province properly once taken etc?).

	13-06-2004 02:27									#33
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

apologies for the delay in getting back to this discussion....I have, of late, been *mired* in the guts of getting all the basic Fate Events hashed out for Dale, and as soon as that's done, expect a DoS-Style assault here on the forums as I put the entire list (more than three hundred events) up for your reading enjoyment and commentary/discussion!

I like the shape and shading of the economic models being discussed, though I too, see two fundamentally different approaches (the mass resource vs the fewer and uniquiely played).

My goal, actually, is to blend the two together into a cohesive whole.

I quite agree, on reflection, that we only need one broad "resource type" in each category (ie - no need for two or three different resources for "food" (tho civ does this and gets away with it...fish at the coast, cows, and wheat). Our system will be fundamentally different, and so, it's not something we can really "do" the way they do it.

Having said that, however, I still *am* a big proponent of including as many resource types as we can, *provided* we can give them all some interesting game mechanic to make them more strategic (this, in addition to their "standard" value as economic enhancers.

The example with "herd points" being spent to avert famine is the best example of this to date, however, others come to mind:

Construction Materials (trade value + a "spend-down" option to give a province a boost in Construction Points to speed-build infrastructure

Weapons/Armor (trade value + decreasing costs for troop maintenance or initial training)

Pottery (and...other stuffs?): (trade value + "spend down" to boost provincial growth rates for x time period)

Horses (trade value + spend down for cheaper cav OR to increase construction points in a province) (can work hand-in-hand with weapons/armor to make for REALLY cheap cav)

Additionally, tech advancements can provide "additional spend down uses" for existing resources (ie, at Espionage lvl x, weapons and armor can be "spent down" to allow espionage-producing buildings to generate double normal espionage points for x turns or something)

-=Vel=-

	13-06-2004 02:29									#34
	Increase the size of your Attachments

to address the points raised by Thor, one of the ways we're trying to combat that (one-dimensional playing) is to make the loyalty of a newly conquered province very low (and thus, prone to rebellion). In this way, the conquering player has to either:

a) keep a-conquering, and run the risk of losing provinces behind him to rebellion

or

b) stop and build infrastructure, giving the local populace time to heal and adjust to the change in rulership

-=Vel=-

(and in this game, rebellions are NASTY!)

	14-06-2004 23:54									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I quite agree, on reflection, that we only need one broad "resource type" in each category (ie - no need for two or three different resources for "food" (tho civ does this and gets away with it...fish at the coast, cows, and wheat).

Actually, it specifically doesn't do this - it never makes a distinction between them. They all just add a generic "food" to the city.

	15-06-2004 03:26									#36
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Quite right, but that's what the initial model here would have done too. They all woulda just provided "food" (and each pop point in a province would require x amount of that, from any source), but where they would differ--slightly--would be in trade values.

-=Vel=-

	15-06-2004 03:41									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

While classifying all food items into one category is all nice and good and simple, I still like the idea of a general food item and a luxury food item. If there's a couple of population classes, then I'd like to see the aristocrats demand a luxury food item, say "venison" or "lobster" even.

It's just I can't see aristocrats eating bread and mead when lobster and wine are available.

	15-06-2004 22:20									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yes it would make a nice angle, how class riddled is Candle'Bre? Do the classes(knight/peasant) have much of a playing presence in the game? If so then this would be a great way to add a little bit of strategy to the econ model and put in those choices Vel was mentioning before.
Wouldn't the posh choice be stuff like stuffed starlings and pickled rabbits skins, snails brains etc?

	16-06-2004 02:52									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Good points all 'round, and yes, I can see the econ model growing as we flesh out more of the systems.

Right now, for example, we're just using generic "population" but it has been kicked around here numerous times, and is the direction I'd very much like to see us go in to have social classes represented as distinct segments of the population. When that occurs, each will have their own agenda....some of the things that make one group happy will tick some of the others off, and it'll become vastly more important to balance those factors.

Dale's example is a case in point. Sure, the Aristocrats WILL eat the cheap stuff, but they'll be unhappy about it, such that "luxury foods" could be a strategic resource generating happiness points for the wealthy...

-=Vel=-