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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:36
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CoD = The New Lego?
Nice try, H_E  We'd be flattered by your description of us as scheming-manipulators-in-pole-position to win the game, if it resonated at all with the actual historical situation. Instead, we're impressed by your determined propaganda stance - as we are also impressed with your battlefield prowess.
The truth is devastatingly simple - we're talking Law of the Jungle here. Us or You. From our pov, Python made a decision that they needed a two-civ continent, and CoD were given first refusal on being the other one of the two civs. What choice was there? As Arrian pointed out - with no Iron, Numids to the south, weak traits, no UU worth speaking of and Python squeezed to the North - we had to sign up.
We were the better prospective (and ongoing) tech-partner, (thanks to our river) seeing as it might be a while before discovering the New World and meeting the other Civs. We'd also had good diplo relations and agreements with Python since early.
Monkey have defended excellently, and will doubtless continue to do so, - but it was our foiled warrior upgrade when the Iron vanished (sabotaged by some devilish, infernal monkey-god no doubt) that explains the lack of CoD swords in the first wave, not some evil scheme to get Python to be our catpaw.
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Looking back on it, the cash amount I eventually came up with for republic was in fact too high (400gold). Miscalculation on my part. It should have been 216 gold, actually. Basically, I forgot to cut the final number in half... for some reason I was convinced I had it right back then, but looking at it now there should have been one more reduction in the number. |
Uh huh, you can say that now but we all know you were trying to be unreasonable so we would have a despotic GA.
quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Something tells me that Monkey would have found 216 gold "exorbitant" too, though. CoD was CLEARLY trying to work out a fair solution to the issue, and your only response was "Gimme! We'll, um, pay you back later." [/exaggeration]
-Arrian |
We may have seriously considered 216 gold.
But to answer this is yes, we wanted you to front us the tech, so we could at least stay close to you in the three way tech partnership and actually contribute. Because our assumption was you were actually going to keep up your pledge to us to keep the partnership intact. But of course as everyone knows you wanted to make sure we got a despotic GA, it was all part of your war plans.
As Beta said you were building the road ages before the Republic stiff. And Im not sure how we could have helped prevent that. We told you the sfae place to stash your explorer, and then all the sudden he pops for the tch 4 or 5 turns early. Not sure what we could have done about that.
*Note same usual disclaimer about having fun this is just propoganda.*
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:36
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I was for keeping tabs of tech points only when all teams in contact with each other were all agreed upon researching together. Then you can use tech points to help keep the trades relatively even. It works best when all the teams involved wish to just burn through the tech tree ASAP.
In other words, the situation on Comedia before the war, and before contact with the rest of the world. It was very important to us, since two of the three teams started with the exact same techs, and the third shared one of those as well (and our other tech, pottery, is the cheapest tech in the game).
With just three teams, all cooperating in research, tech points can work fine. But as soon as the market includes teams outside the original tech partnership, it tends to break down.
The reason people tend to want to track tech points, UnO, is so that their team doesn't get screwed. Of course, the savvy trader is all about screwing the people he's trading with by getting the best price possible.
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
To me as far as civ goes: Say I'm in a PBEM and lack horses. Horse back riding is going to be absolutely worthless to me. So would Chivalry, and (god forbid I still lack horses) Military Tradition. In such a case I'll be damned if I'm paying 'book value' for those. |
Well, HBR is not useless, because it's a required tech. You need it to exit the ancient age.
The other two are, yes. In fact, Chivalry is useless to CoD, and thus we have no interest in it. No iron, no knights.
This is why a good tech partnership includes everyone agreeing to research and deals AHEAD OF TIME. That's the key. Hence: ok, Python you research philosophy (6) and something else (4), CoD researches Code of Laws (10), and Monkey researches Literature (10, IIRC). Then we all trade, and it's all good. That works well.
The problem in our situation, beyond the war of course, was that Monkey appeared unable or unwilling (IMO, mostly unable, somewhat unwilling) to come close to matching CoD and Python's research. What that meant was that even though CoD kept cutting deals with Monkey to get them tech at bargain prices, they were still falling behind. So when we got to republic, and the MM SNAFU occurred, suddenly the only options were cash or "we'll get you back in the future." The war made option #2 impossible. Even if the war plan did not exist, if I had given republic to Monkey in exchange for nothing but promises, I probably should've been impeached for gross idiocy.
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:36
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Yeah, that particular negotiation was INSANE. IIRC, the disagreement was over this very issue - devaluation (it's just that we still used tech points).
The key is all parties agreeing on what is to be researched by whom and traded for what - BEFORE the research is actually done.
If one team says ahead of time: hey, wait, we don't care about XYZ tech, so we don't want to pay for it, the other teams involved can decide whether or not to bother researching it, and if they do, they can work something else out for how to divvy up that research.
And Arnelos raises a good point - you can wait around for a tech to devalue on the market (and devalue in actual research cost due to the game mechanics), but not in all situations will that work. If you're only 1/2 way through the ancient age, there is no pressing need for HBR. But if you're towards the end of the ancient age, the need becomes more pressing, because you are going to want out of that age. And if the other teams you can trade with approach these things the way many do, you may find it difficult to get that bargain basement price you're looking for. Personally, while I might let it go at a small discount, I dislike your method about as much as you do mine, so I'd be disinclined to help you out by rewarding your strategy.
-Arrian
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25-05-2004 03:23
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