13-06-2004 06:51									#301
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: This bug is not allowed: On the turn a terraformer completes its terraforming task, its "flag" will be grayed out indicating that it has moved. Clicking on and activating the terraformer will allow a new terraforming command to be issued to the terraformer with the correct number of turns to completion displayed. Clicking on and activating the terraformer again, cancelling its new orders; at this point, the terraformer will have regained one movement point.

Actually under that definition it isn't the same bug. I actually mainly used an more complicated variant of the programming mistake that gave better terraforming time than the one you mentioned. I was busy trying to teach the simple version to someone when they pointed out that it was on the buglist, and that's when I found out there was a buglist. The led to a guilt trips and eventually to the private poll. Didn't really stop the guilt trips and it was a contributing factor in why I kept ducking out of the Hive all the time later into the game. Hoping someone else would play the turns. Still have guilt trips about it, especially when people call me a good strategy player.

	13-06-2004 07:32									#302
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

It is almost more interesting to read the commentary here than in the ACDG11 forums (when they open).

But there does seem to be confusion over some the legitamcy of some tactics.

	13-06-2004 08:04									#303
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think it more comes down to whether you think it's illegal or not.

Sometimes we know something is illegal and do it anyway, if we think it's not quite breaking the rules. I think that it should be clarified that while I wasn't actually breaking the rules, motive was what counts more. My motive wasn't particularly heroic.

My guilt was more that I never could justify I was being fair in how I went about the game, even though the Hive kept a fair spotless diplomancy during my time. We were never quite sure how much other factions were skirting the edge and whether our skirting was more or less than another faction.

Maniac:
I think if you want to discourage something similar in the following game, there should be more emphasis on spirit of the game rather than fireproof rules. The peer pressure wouldn't have been to milk the game for everything you might be able to get away with. Fireproof rules just encourage people to try and find a way around them.

Also my conscience over my actions in the ACDG never developed there, they developed by reading PBEM threads and the strategy forum where they talked about the spirit of the game etc. In the ACDG it was accepted that most factions would screw other factions over given any chance, so it seemed almost acceptable.

As I was preparing for this PBEM I started reading far more about how people conduct themselves and my previous embrassment was greatly amplified.

Enigma:
By the way, thanks .

Last edited by Kody on 13-06-2004 at 08:17

	13-06-2004 08:12									#304
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Whereas I'll do just about anything to get ahead, and feel no guilt so long as I achieve my original objective.

It's that 'Killer Instinct' Kody lacks that makes him just another SMAC player with a strat guide.

My weakness, of course, is that if I can't attain my objectives or implement my ideas (A usually = B), then I get pretty upset.

	13-06-2004 08:23									#305
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: It's that 'Killer Instinct' Kody lacks that makes him just another SMAC player with a strat guide.

Yeah but I was very happy in the Hive before I started skirting the edge after the whispers started about how everyone is willing to do everything they can get away with to win.

___________________________________

While my morals were weak enough to be perveted. I'm glad my sense of loyalty didn't.

Ironically I think that the main thing that won the game for the Hive was the loyalty. The drones repaid the loyalty and gave far more than a few cheats ever did, and I learnt how to manage economy and buildup far better than I would have ever been able to do alone. Then the fact the Drones and the Hive were really the only two strong allies in the game meant that while other factions were still hindering each other with gaining advantage. Our alliance was... using impaler's words from the cycon private forum...
"the level of cooperation between them is sick"

	13-06-2004 09:00									#306
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I'm fighting you tactically, diplomatically and psychologically.
Try a bit harder, son!

Perverted Morals?
No, your morals remained the same. You just became aware of new information.
You did what was good (in your mind) until you found out that it was 'unfair'.
This in turn made you guilty, and made your actions bad.
Correct decisions on incomplete information - such is SMAX, such is life.

I don't see where Loyalty came into it.
I don't understand how Loyalty applied to me, but any way...
I suppose The Hive's people were 'communal' in the sense that everyone felt an obligation to help everyone else.
I suppose that is loyalty - the eternal support of your allies.
Such was the case between Hive and Drones.

Of course, Loyalty from Enigma is blood from a stone.
Loving expression of ideas, and understanding of concepts:
I will speak my mind, what IMO is honestly correct.
I am too eccentric, too independent, too combative and too free of mind to place faith in another above faith in myself.

- I will try to implement my good ideas. Not because of any charity to those who the ideas affect, but because it is my evolved tendency to use my mind to improve my environment.
- I will also attempt to teach others. Again not because I am concerned for them, but because I am concerned for Understanding. Understanding is one of my traits, and by spreading it around I am spreading my traits around.
- I attempt to speak the honest truth. This is a byproduct of my expressive nature - the love of speaking my mind.
I hate to have my expressive nature repressed, by the ignorance of others or the shrewdness of myself.

My personality has its place, as does yours.

Last edited by Enigma_Nova on 13-06-2004 at 09:16

	13-06-2004 09:11									#307
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ok I'll admit that I never know that former reactivation is illegal in ACDGII. Not sure who told me about it but I've always thought that it was allowed. Again I didn't do it diligently simply because it is very time consuming. But if it is not allowed, I will admit that I was at fault in spreading words that it is allowed.

But again Kody is right. The most important thing is the spirit. If we all have the principle that we will not win the game through any kind of cheating, listed or not, then we will have the environment for a more honest and better game. I personally vow that I will do all I can to ensure this happens in the next ACDG game.

	13-06-2004 09:17									#308
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

So we're exchanging worldviews?
Excellent. This will keep the spam up for another 50 posts.

	13-06-2004 09:29									#309
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by HongHu Not sure who told me about it but I've always thought that it was allowed.

We saw the Drones do it, I followed suit, then the process unfolded.

quote: But again Kody is right. The most important thing is the spirit.

Raises the obvious question of why we play games.
I'll say it again, HongHu:
We're not all playing SMAC for the same reason, and
we all have different viewpoints on the game.
This was even more prevalent in The Hive when you presumed that enjoying ourselves was everyone's top priority.
For me, it was changing The Hive's Social System.
While implementing my ideas may make me happy, that was not the end-goal.
What's worse, you seemed to presume we enjoy similar things to similar amounts - WRONG.
Try not to presume the emotions of others - you will view them with a clearer mind and perhaps see what their emotional reactions really are.

quote: If we all have the principle that we will not win the game through any kind of cheating, listed or not, then we will have the environment for a more honest and better game.

Unlisted cheating is hard to define.
We all think we're playing a moral game, but our sense of what is moral differs.
When two people have differing opinions of what is moral, i.e. one sees it as good and another is bad,
what scheme do you have in place?

What do you do, HongHu, when people don't agree on what is a moral occurance?
* Enigma_Nova ensures he understands both points of view, then either teaches the feuding parties to do the same or enforces his more-informed decision

quote: I personally vow that I will do all I can to ensure this happens in the next ACDG game.

Then read this post. You might learn something that can assist you in your objectives.

	13-06-2004 09:40									#310
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova So we're exchanging worldviews? Excellent. This will keep the spam up for another 50 posts.

Excellent, then.

quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova We're not all playing SMAC for the same reason, and we all have different viewpoints on the game.

Yes, I definitely agree. However, when every one has a sense of honor, the atmosphere will be changed. The few people that felt ok to do some rule bending or exploiting may not be encouraged that much.

quote: Then read this post. You might learn something that can assist you in your objectives.

Yes, I will remember what you said and hopefully that understanding will help me in doing what I feel is right. We all try to achieve something. The result may not be exactly what we hoped. But we can always try. And make the world a little better (according to our own belief of course) in the process of trying.

	13-06-2004 10:02									#311
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by HongHu Excellent, then.

The next HoF turn thread should be "HoF spam tracking #3: M.Y. 2118"

quote: However, when every one has a sense of honor, the atmosphere will be changed.

PBEMs pretty much run on the honour system. I'd like to think we all have a sense of honour, but
My idea of honour is a fast turn,
Jamski's idea of honour is a polite player,
and Kody's idea of honour is a 'sploitless game.
So we have one 'sploitin ranter, one slow 'sploiter, and one slow-playin' ranter.

quote: But we can always try. And make the world a little better (according to our own belief of course) in the process of trying.

Always in our own belief.

	13-06-2004 15:04									#312
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova We saw the Drones do it, I followed suit, then the process unfolded.

* Maniac sees buster falling from his pedestal.

	13-06-2004 15:19									#313
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

o.O
You're not even in this game. Whatchew doin' spammin ma turn thread, Maniac?

	13-06-2004 15:46									#314
	Suffering from ads?

This looks like bad trouble in the making. Maniac is winking.

I was willing to take the fall for any of my actions, but the last thing I wanted to do was make this into an accusation thread on borderline activities. Can we please keep things relatively clean in here.

I only posted a few things I wasn't sure about with the Cycon because Geomodder and I were having a discussion and he asked about it.

	13-06-2004 16:01									#315
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kody but the last thing I wanted to do was make this into an accusation thread on borderline activities.

* Enigma_Nova accuses you of starting the thread topic
Must want to draw attention away from his activities...

So what's brought up this recent guilt trip, Kody?
Trying to improve your diplomatic relations by drawing attention away from your fight with HongHu?
Or just setting yourself up to be the victim so people don't notice you're tearing away headfirst in the powerchart?
You -did- mention taking any small non-exploit advantage,
but isn't making an emotional story just a -little- exploitive of the emotions of folk around here?

I mean, if he had problems he'd be seeing a shrink.
Only now he makes an emotional story about exploits
so that he can exploit the emotions of others.
And in harping about honesty, he almost deceived all of us.
GW Kody.

	13-06-2004 16:10									#316
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I didn't know the HoF thread was going to welcome all commers.

quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova Raises the obvious question of why we play games. I'll say it again, HongHu: We're not all playing SMAC for the same reason, and we all have different viewpoints on the game. This was even more prevalent in The Hive when you presumed that enjoying ourselves was everyone's top priority. For me, it was changing The Hive's Social System. While implementing my ideas may make me happy, that was not the end-goal. What's worse, you seemed to presume we enjoy similar things to similar amounts - WRONG. Try not to presume the emotions of others - you will view them with a clearer mind and perhaps see what their emotional reactions really are.

The main reason why I joined the Hive was the simple fact that I am a Hive loyalist. I totally agree with Chairman Yang and his ideology.

My second reason(s) why I joined the Hive was to meet new people to interact with and befriend, as well as winning the ACDG. I feel that I have accomplished these goals, despite my lack of participation in the ACDG. If I felt that we could get away with PB'ing an ally if it meant the Hive would be the top dog on Planet, I would totally support it. Renounce Pact and launch the 'busters.

I still monitor the Hive, but since things are progressing as usual, I feel that my postings wouldn't make much difference. Power belongs to those to strive to attain it.

	13-06-2004 16:14									#317
	Put an end to popups!

Tell that for the couped-out poster child for the ACPSG.
I strived for lots o power, but never got it.

	13-06-2004 16:25									#318
	Suffering from ads?

What made me sad earlier was because the Cycon pretty much saw me as their main obstacle for pacting with the Hive. Whereas, I spent days agonising over the fact that most people in the Hive just wanted to backstab the Cycon.

Using expolits is something that generally makes for badwill. If you notice the general viewpoint is if you're cheating you pretty much get kicked out of the game and likely nobody will want to play with you.

I actually didn't want to make it public because it'll just sour the game for other people. However, Geomodder asked a direct question when I mentioned the dodgy behaviour issue. Also the things I had done in the ACDG had been on my mind alot ever since I started this PBEM, I actually was thinking of never playing any PBEMs. I brought up some issues with Barthius about how I didn't want to win this PBEM.

Also I'm kindof still wondering what Maniac is going to do now. He's been quite the "burn all cheaters" in the past, and it appears now that my actions were more questionable than his.

	13-06-2004 17:22									#319
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Kody doesn't want to win?!
He's the only realistic shot.

The next two winners are Geomodder and myself.
I was looking forward to a big ass war between Kody and I, but it looks like that will have to wait until some lesser players have been mopped up by Geo and CT.

	13-06-2004 19:28									#320
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

[modesty]
Me? a winner? I'm barely in the latter third of the powergraph, and not even mentioned in the 'Best of' screen.
[/modesty]


I'll response on Kody later, no time now...

	13-06-2004 20:04									#321
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Who do you pick as Winner?

Hercules?
Jamski?
HongHu?

I lost too much turn advantage when the formers were destroyed.

	13-06-2004 20:05									#322
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Who has the turn?
EDIT: Seems that it's with Jamski

	13-06-2004 20:09									#323
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Who do you think.....

I got distracted and read all the posts until the 6-2003 in the peace forum. Earlier than that nothing really happened that's interesting I reckon.

	13-06-2004 23:16									#324
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

It will probably take me a month to read all the Hive and Drone forums.

	14-06-2004 00:15									#325
	Remove this text

When will you authorize 'new' members, Hercules?

	14-06-2004 02:37									#326
	Support Apolyton

Sorry to keep people waiting, I found a worse drug than Everquest.

2115 -> Kody

-Jam

	14-06-2004 03:19									#327
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by GeoModder When will you authorize 'new' members, Hercules?

I'll go check now for new requests.

	14-06-2004 05:27									#328
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Jamski isn't it turn 2117?

Because I've got a 2116 save file in my outbox.
Also your new turn 2115 save is sitting right under your old 2116 save.

	14-06-2004 05:30									#329
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Jamski's on drugs?

What is everquest? Oh it's a game. Phew.

	14-06-2004 05:36									#330
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Jamski please send turn 2117 instead of turn 2115. Otherwise Enigma will suffer the destruction of his formers all over again.