29-05-2004 18:39									#31
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Yeah, I'm kinda biased, my family's been farming the same square mile of Oklahoma for over a hundred years. Government subsidies are a fairly modern concept, they produced most of what they needed themselves. Had a stand of Maple trees for molasses and syrup. Had a stand of Cherry trees, a stand of Walnut trees, about the only thing they had to trade for was fabric, tools, and dairy products.

	29-05-2004 18:44									#32
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Exactly Ghengis. Most family farms trade locally - not internationally.

	29-05-2004 19:42									#33
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Most family farms are unprofitable so they get MY tax money to survive through bloody subsidies.

Its actually more profitable for a farmer to grow nothing these days - the subsidies are worth more than the crops

-Jam

	29-05-2004 19:47									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Most family farms are unprofitable so they get MY tax money to survive through bloody subsidies. Its actually more profitable for a farmer to grow nothing these days - the subsidies are worth more than the crops -Jam

That's a pretty broad statement. Jurisdictions? Sources?

	29-05-2004 19:52									#35
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Well, there's the "Set Aside" subsidy, where a farmer can set a field aside for nature for a year (to help the enviornment and to stop overproduction) but the subsidy is more than the crops would be worth... guess what? Farmers abuse it to hell!

Then many crops are unprofitable to grow as the market prices are too low (due to overproduction) - so the farmers get a subsidy to grow them anyway, as they are staples (like corn, potatoes, wheat, etc) and then the EU even buys up surpluses and burns them... Its crazy - and its caused by people demanding cheap food.

-Jam

	29-05-2004 20:02									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Well, there's the "Set Aside" subsidy, where a farmer can set a field aside for nature for a year (to help the enviornment and to stop overproduction) but the subsidy is more than the crops would be worth... guess what? Farmers abuse it to hell!

Not on our farm. No 'set-aside'.

quote: Then many crops are unprofitable to grow as the market prices are too low (due to overproduction) - so the farmers get a subsidy to grow them anyway, as they are staples (like corn, potatoes, wheat, etc) and then the EU even buys up surpluses and burns them... Its crazy - and its caused by people demanding cheap food. -Jam

Perhaps the public should pay the actual cost of production? Political suicide (I'm not opining on validity of the proposal).

My parents farm is more livestock than agriculture. With the current BSE situation in Canada they are taking it up the ass.

	29-05-2004 20:06									#37
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Farmers grow food so I don't have to, great people.

	29-05-2004 20:34									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Just like modern steel mills are evil. They put blacksmiths out of work.

Blacksmiths didn't make steel or iron. They just worked it into tools and weapons.

	29-05-2004 20:36									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Just like modern steel mills are evil. They put blacksmiths out of work.

No, they're evil for being smog belching hell forges.

	29-05-2004 20:39									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Most family farms are unprofitable so they get MY tax money to survive through bloody subsidies. Its actually more profitable for a farmer to grow nothing these days - the subsidies are worth more than the crops -Jam

I think that most subsidies end up going to the 'corporate farmer' rather then the 'family farmer'.


But I'm not sure how common these so-called 'family farms' are in the west, anyways.

	29-05-2004 20:56									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Well, there's the "Set Aside" subsidy, where a farmer can set a field aside for nature for a year (to help the enviornment and to stop overproduction) but the subsidy is more than the crops would be worth... guess what? Farmers abuse it to hell! Then many crops are unprofitable to grow as the market prices are too low (due to overproduction) - so the farmers get a subsidy to grow them anyway, as they are staples (like corn, potatoes, wheat, etc) and then the EU even buys up surpluses and burns them... Its crazy - and its caused by people demanding cheap food. -Jam

I'm pretty sure there are strict limitations on how much or your land you can set aside in the US. I do remember some years ago where my Uncle was joking about that year the fallow fields earned more than the unfallow ones due to some bumper crop in Kansas lowering the prices.

Since the late 70's they were earning more off the oil and gas royalties than the farming though.

	29-05-2004 21:29									#42
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Yeah, I'm talking about the EU though - the biggest single payment the EU make is farming subsidies.

Farmers... You ever see a poor farmer?

-Jam

	29-05-2004 21:30									#43
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Yeah, most of the 800 million of them.

Different country, of course.

	29-05-2004 21:42									#44
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I voted hardworking and prosperous.

Though perhaps subsudy sucking and prosperous would be apt.

	29-05-2004 22:07									#45
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Although...I though you'd be in the "Protectionist SOB camp, for some reason...

I would, if it wasn't for the SOB

	29-05-2004 22:15									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Blacksmiths didn't make steel or iron. They just worked it into tools and weapons.

Whatever. Replace "steel mill" with "thing that works steel into tools and weapons".

Surely, you understood my point.

	29-05-2004 23:22									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Replace "steel mill" with "thing that works steel into tools and weapons".

I think that would be a blacksmith.

	29-05-2004 23:36									#48
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About 16 years ago, one of my older sisters married into a farming family.

They are definitely not poor.

	29-05-2004 23:39									#49
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"Family farmers" or "industrial farmers", just as long as they're not raping the government's funds or raping the environment, they're just producing food.

	30-05-2004 00:20									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Yeah, I'm talking about the EU though - the biggest single payment the EU make is farming subsidies. Farmers... You ever see a poor farmer? -Jam

quite a few

one of my best friends fathers grows soy and has to work at a proctor and gamble factory in order to thrive.

	30-05-2004 00:27									#51
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Farmers, as a kind of rural petty bourgeoisie, have always been deeply right-wing. The fascists relied on them to fill up the ranks, "farmers parties" have ranged from centrists to rabid ultranationalists and it's certainly the segment of the population the likes of Haider and Le Pen are most likely to be able to count on.

Here in Sweden the image of arch-conservative, pickup-driving, shotgun-carrying immigrant-hating men with thick regional dialects is viewed with extreme revulsion. Of course, in the US that's about half the population.

	30-05-2004 00:34									#52
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So- to summarise. As long as they're picturesque apple-cheeked peasants who turn the soil with honest sweat, and pause to stroke wild deer as they pass, farmers are great.

If they're like the people who produce most of our food, they aren't.

	30-05-2004 00:42									#53
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lol @ Laz

Very nice.

	30-05-2004 09:19									#54
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I believe we have shown that the "farmer (perception) gap" is indeed very real.

The next logical question is, "why?"

	30-05-2004 09:22									#55
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I've said God's own people but then I am surrounded by thousands of Amish.

	30-05-2004 09:58									#57
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk

Well, not within arms length. More like a 5-10 mile radius.

	30-05-2004 11:24									#58
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I think of immigrants who work land owned by corporations.

this is how most farming is done in america.

	30-05-2004 14:28									#59
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I believe we have shown that the "farmer (perception) gap" is indeed very real. The next logical question is, "why?"

Because most people don't live in farming country and have very little idea of what it's like.

	30-05-2004 15:59									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Because most people don't live in farming country and have very little idea of what it's like.

The Europeans and Americans hardly differ in urbanization rate. So the place of living is not the reason of this difference.