08-06-2004 08:53									#31
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But the day of the Inca has begun

	08-06-2004 14:08									#32
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Inca? Are we not Mayan :P

	08-06-2004 15:26									#33
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I support moving E with the worker. Should we find no oasis nearby, I suggest we settle on the spot.

The area looks extremely good, and these mere 9 tiles would provide 24 food and 17 shields once maxed out

Hiwever, I would like not to be too gung-ho about this location: it feels like there are only two extra flood plains we could work, and maybe a few hills. Unless we irrigate ordinary deserts later in the game, it is possible we may not reach 20 pop.

	08-06-2004 19:49									#34
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After MUCH deliberation (and a quick constitutional to a Nuclear Reactor in Sydney ), I decided in my infinite Despot wisdom to move the worker East, onto the mountain.

This is what I found:



It seems to me that founding where we are is good. We can mine the grass and plains in range when our first city expands its culture radius, and for the first few turns we should probably work a floodplain (or maybe Gems).

I will get my bearings back from Oz and catch up with work in the next 24 hours then I fully intend to schedule a turnchat shortly (within 48 hours) to found the first city based on feedback in this thread from citizens and maybe play a few turns.

So, let us know what you think we should do with the worker for the first few turns, what we should research, what we should build in the first city and where exactly to found the first Castle(city)!

	08-06-2004 20:04									#35
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We are in an excellent position. I suggest we settle at once!

I also suggest our worker mines the hill (8 turns IIRC). We'll have 2 extra food + 3 shields once he's done, meaning we'll be able to churn out settlers+warriors quite quickly from the beginning of the game on.

Finally, I say we research The Wheel. In these surroundings, we have a chance of finding horses, and the chance to find the Japanese at the beginning of the game is pretty low (1/3 chance they're in the game at all, even smaller odds they're any close)
Besides, since we don't have scouts, and won't trade maps for a very long time, it may be wise to explore or pangaea with chariots instead of warriors. Just an idea.

Now, how should we call our Great Capitol?
I can't imagine anything cool right now, but I'm sure somebody will find good suggestions

	08-06-2004 20:09									#36
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hi ,

well settle now , disease shall not be a problem , the benefits wage it at ones

looks like we can expand towards the sea , .....

have a nice day

	08-06-2004 20:19									#37
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I'd say settle! As for the capital name... hmm... we need something Feudal-y

	08-06-2004 21:45									#38
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First lets settle our capital location on the current location, then send the worker to grab up the goody hut

	09-06-2004 02:55									#39
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Settle in place.

What would happen to the goody hut if the cultural boundary expanded into it before a unit was sent it's way?

But wouldn't a worker be dead meat if it poped a barb?

We do need to mine the hill the worker is on right away to improve our shield production.

As for order of improving tiles, since we are Agricultural, Desert is actually good terraign and a fairly high priority to irrigate.

(I'm guessing 3 desert tiles after first cultural expansion, we will know for sure once the city is founded.)

	09-06-2004 02:59									#40
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Also the plains tile 3-3-3 on the river on the coast might be a good place for our first settler produced from the capital. (Alternatively 3-3-3-4) Depends upon if there's bonsus resources near there.

	09-06-2004 03:38									#41
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quote: decided in my infinite Despot wisdom to move the worker East, onto the mountain.

Or possibly even the hill :P

	09-06-2004 05:42									#42
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I decided in my infinite Despot wisdom to move the worker East, onto the mountain.

Where was that infinite wisdom to tell you you to go north towards the Goodie Hut?

I'm not gonna touch the difference between a Hill and Mountain as that appears to have been addressed by others...........

	09-06-2004 06:03									#43
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So you think we should hit the goodie hut with the worker as well...

what do I say.... babarians??? Shmarbarians!!! I'd hate to see a scout advance upon that goodie hut because we waited for a warrior...if it comes to it we can just start a new game it's not like we've invested a ton of time in this game. It is what I would do

	09-06-2004 09:34									#44
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Happily, popping a hut before we have any military units will NOT result in Barbs. That's why we can do so with the worker or wait until the expanding culture gets there, as long as we have not built any warriors by then.

Eep! I did mean hills, of course. (I'm just glad no-one has yet yelled at me for missing out on the grid this time around... )

I'll just found the city where we are when I get home from work in a few hours, and call it something Apolyton-y unless a decent Feudal name crops up. We can always change it when we have some options, and I'd much rather get the game moving than wait for a name that can be changed any old time!

	09-06-2004 10:10									#45
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Food is king. Food is king. Food is king. (subtle hint)

Also, don't get distracted by huts. It's there, plan around it, but don't go out of our way to get it. Let the cultural borders grab the Hut in 10 turns. Build a Worker first so we have no military when it pops. No military = no chance for Barbs from the hut.

By relying on the cultural borders we won't waste the 4 Worker turns running up there and back. We need another Worker out first to make best use of this terrain anyways. Mining Hills and Mountains takes a lot of Worker turns even for Industrious. Our exploration will be a bit slower, but we can catch back up soon enough by emphasizing food.

Found the city, and maybe something interesting will pop up to the W. If we see an Oasis sent the Worker to road/irrigate to it then mine it ASAP. Otherwise road the Hill since we're there and will need to improve it at some point anyways. Then go Irrigate the Flood Plain to the E. Use the river Hill (or the E Hill once we road it) 1 turn in the next 6 (definitely not turn 7!), an FP the rest of the time. That will give us 7 turn growth, and a Worker build finished the turn after growth.

Worker will take 3 turns on the Hill road, then one turn moving to a FP. Irrigation takes 3 more turns, which is one turn too slow to get us to 5 turn growth for the second pop cycle. It will get us to 6 turn growth and still let us use the Hill again one turn (with a free shield use on the growth turn) though.

	09-06-2004 15:48									#46
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rock on

	09-06-2004 16:42									#47
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt (I'm just glad no-one has yet yelled at me for missing out on the grid this time around... )

What?!?!?!

The United Grid Lobbyists Local # 434 is ENRAGED by this blatant disregard for the participants of this DemoGame!

We demand restitution be paid to all participants!

	09-06-2004 18:27									#48
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I gotta say that we should go for the goody hut with the worker for the simple reason of "What If" as in, what if there happens to be a settler waiting in that hut??? Then what.

I can see it both ways though as the terrain around us dictates there not be a whole lotta production... in my mind it is a tossup.

If we go for the hut first I believe the consequences are minimal in terms of initial production, especially if we plan on building another worker first. With two workers AND being industrious we can play catch up in a hurry.... On the other hand, getting that goody hut, if it does turn out to be a settler, we'd be light years ahead, and even if it is not, we'd be able to catch up as we'd have two workers that have an industrious frame of mind

I say go for the hut.

	09-06-2004 19:53									#49
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Good luck, guys. By the way: Aeson knows what he's talking about. I strongly suggest you listen.

-Arrian

	09-06-2004 21:02									#50
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is this a Demo-game or is this an Aeson-game? :P

	09-06-2004 21:06									#51
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I'm all for going for the hut. It's not like we're playing against human opponents as in the team games and an early settler would be nice.

	10-06-2004 01:28									#52
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quote: With two workers AND being industrious we can play catch up in a hurry....

You'd need a Settler from the hut to ever catch up to having two Workers and being Industrious... and not wasting 4 Worker turns.

The only sure thing about sending the Worker for the hut is we lose 4 Worker turns. The odds of getting a Settler from the hut are the same whatever turn we pop the hut. The benefit of opening the hut sooner is we'd have the Settler/Warrior sooner if it's going to be there. It's paying 4 Worker turns for ~15% chance of it paying off big. Using those 4 Worker turns to build a Road will pay off... 100%.

The odds of missing the Hut to a neighbor on a Large map (distance between civs:18) in the first 10 turns are negligible as well. If you watch the AI explore pattern they very rarely go in straight lines. They also don't take into account terrain when using Scouts, and often waste movement by moving onto Hills, Mountains, Forests, Swamps, or Jungles with their first movement point. To reach that hut before our cultural borders do, they'd have to pretty much beeline for it and have flat terrain all the way.

I just ran 10 turns in debug on a Large map with 6 Expansionist AI. Their scouts made it 2, 5, 9, 9, 10, and 13 tiles from their capitol. A second test on another map gave 2, 5, 8, 10, 10, and 11. They do see huts within 4 tiles of their initial city and beeline their Scout for it. They don't beeline for things (huts, civs) far away with their Scouts.

Our start is hemmed in by coast to the E. We have a Mountain range extending N and S, and there will be Jungle/Swamp not too distant to the S too. That further diminishes the chances that an AI will be able to make it to us in that timeframe, the only direction they could come without running into movement restrictions is from the W.

	10-06-2004 02:18									#53
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I fully believe Aeson's correct on the odds and the logic of popping the hut later versus now.

But...........

I don't want to ruin the game for anyone. But the best part of a DemoGame as opposed to the team competitions is that, well we're pretty much gonna win no matter how idiotic we are. Come on, the Civ AI are complete morons. We're gonna kick their buts.

We have the luxury of making decisions and moves and gameplay because we felt like it, not necessarily because its the most efficient move to make. If it sounds like fun to attack and invading horde of Legionaires with our 3 Workers in the north. We could do that. I wouldn't vote for that option, unless maybe they were Uber's Workers...........

It's like Sir Ralph was talking about, at this point roleplaying and light hearted game play are more of what I'm in this for. I've had several years of playing the game in teams and SP for maximizing score, that's gotten kinda old. But interacting with other players and utilizing that as the basis of our gameplay promises to be interesting.

Although I'm not necessarily prepared to invest our entire next four turns of use of the Worker in one Hut. Of course we could road the Gems to the northwest of him, making it faster to get to the hut and connecting us to Gems at the same time.

	10-06-2004 02:57									#54
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No worries GF, it's not going to ruin the game for me if we don't go get the hut first.

That said, I also agree with you on the "fun" aspect . For me, when I play the game I don't care too much for 4 paragraphs of logic and analysis (no offense to those of you who do this) I don't calculate which tile will be the best place to put a city because it will give 39 food instead of 37. That takes too much time and doesn't affect the game drastically at all. Sure I look it over and make an good guestimate.... but it's just a game. I save all of that analysis and what not for work and whatnot.

When I see a goody hut at the beginning of the game, I go get it. To me, it's more fun that way, to see what we're gonna get, before I start with the workers action if I don't have a scout. I don't think it usually puts me that far behind, even when I have two workers and industrious, sure, I may never catch back up completely, but do I really need to??? Like I said, it's just more fun to go get the goody hut right away, just to see what is there...

but that is just me....

	10-06-2004 15:30									#55
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I don't see any good reason to go pop the hut immediately...
Just build a worker and let the city pop it; we still have a chance for a settler or other stuff then.

	10-06-2004 16:19									#56
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go hard on that grid

	10-06-2004 16:37									#57
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Bah we're playing at such a silly difficult level anyway, so doesn't even matter than much i'd guess.. but still not a reason not to do it proper, i say wait for the borders to expand to pop it automatically but i don't mind moving the worker there if someone prefer that rather.. =)

	10-06-2004 17:21									#58
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The people have spoken...

	11-06-2004 04:34									#59
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Sorry for the delay guys - I have been in demand a lot recently IRL. I am now mega-tired, but free to found the city. I will do this later tonight (maybe 8 hours' time), and then try to get a turnchat going for Saturday around 0100 GMT).

	11-06-2004 05:03									#60
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WIA:
Before founding the city, please save the game and share the save. It will be great for historical purposes