07-06-2004 11:55									#31
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AH, Yeah well that's different if you had volunteered from other country to help Hitlers reich... Those would come close to the scum IMO too.

	07-06-2004 11:57									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka What? We didn't fight for Hitler.. wtf Ted?

exactly

	07-06-2004 11:58									#33
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quote: I don't have much sympathy for the German forces, including many non Germans in their ranks, who died. They made a pact with the Devil in the form of Hitler and got what they deserved in the end.

Finally, someone is talking sense. I'm shocked that it's AH, but what are you going to do?

	07-06-2004 11:59									#34
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what a bunch of heartless trollers
Your souls are lost!

	07-06-2004 11:59									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer their cause doesn't matter

Yes it does. Many of them were young and impressionable. Many were forced to fight. They still fought for evil. They deserve the thanks of Germany for putting their bodies in the way of the bullets that Germany brought upon itself. They don't deserve my thanks or admiration.

The truly courageous Germans risked their lives for freedom by refusing to fight, by helping Jews escape the slaughter, by spying for the Allies, by defecting at the first opportunity.

The rest are not criminals simply for fighting when their government told them to. They were simply weak men, and their weakness cost the lives of 50 million.

	07-06-2004 12:00									#36
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You do realise they were under propaganda, right? And that most of them had no idea of Nazi crimes done or about to be done?

	07-06-2004 12:04									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The SS was different from the Wehrmacht and you know it.

LOL

Good to know you're still living a fairytale world there Ted.

	07-06-2004 12:06									#38
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@ this thread

	07-06-2004 12:09									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka You do realise they were under propaganda, right? And that most of them had no idea of Nazi crimes done or about to be done?

a) Bullshit. You ever hear of something called Kristallnacht?

b) What about the crime of invading nation after nation?

c) Only one who deliberately blinded himself could not see what Hitler was. The censorship alone could tell you that something was amiss.

I hope to God that if I'm ever in a situation where a tyrant puts me on the front lines I'll have the courage to turn my rifle on him. These men didn't.

	07-06-2004 12:13									#40
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I guess a Finn wouldn't understand what it means to fight on the right side, would he...

Slippery little weasels they are.

	07-06-2004 12:15									#41
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader It was a huge undertaking, Che. Well worth the remembering. And I agree with Albert that it is worth saving a corner in the memory for the German soldiers who also had to fight and die far from home.

And perhaps for the civilians of whom more died than soldiers.

	07-06-2004 12:18									#42
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I can't condemn the 18 year old (or 15) German conscript who grew up being brain washed by the regime.

I can damn well blame his damned parents all to hell, but not him.

	07-06-2004 12:18									#43
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KH, your trolls are getting weak. Why don't you just quit it.

	07-06-2004 12:18									#44
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The dead and those who suffered have my respect and compassion for them as human beings.

I reserve my admiration and thanks for those who fought for good.

	07-06-2004 12:19									#45
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i suggest this be the last post in this thread. unfortunately, it has degenerated into a stupid debate.

	07-06-2004 12:20									#46
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The dead and those who suffered have my respect and compassion for them as human beings. I reserve my admiration and thanks for those who fought for good.

I'd have to agree with that.

Edit for big x-post.

	07-06-2004 12:21									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka KH, your trolls are getting weak. Why don't you just quit it.

It's not a troll if it's true.

If you can see yourself fighting for Hitler because some propaganda film told you to, if you can see yourself deliberately turning a blind eye toward the crimes your society was engaged in, if you can see yourself fighting wholeheartedly for the invasion of neutral country after neutral country then you might want to consider taking a long hard look at yourself.

	07-06-2004 12:23									#48
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I think there were a lot of honorable solidiers in the German and Japanese ranks too, especially considering what great odds they fought against.

And regardless of how evil the old men controlling their government may have been, they will always have my infinite respect.

	07-06-2004 12:25									#49
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KH, so what does that have to do with my country anyway?

	07-06-2004 12:27									#50
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The period from 1940-1991 springs to mind.

	07-06-2004 12:28									#51
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Uh?

	07-06-2004 12:29									#52
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91? Did Ronnie have extra helpers?

	07-06-2004 12:30									#53
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Let it go. The Finland part is a bit of a troll. Still rooted in truth.

As for the rest, I'm dead serious.

	07-06-2004 12:31									#54
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I know, but it was funny. Haha. Right?

	07-06-2004 12:32									#55
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Still rooted in truth?

	07-06-2004 12:32									#56
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should we remember and honor Soviet soldiers?

	07-06-2004 12:33									#57
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I know, but it was funny. Haha. Right?

I xposted with you...

	07-06-2004 12:35									#58
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I think that no matter how utterly immoral and evil something is, the government and media can always spin it into seeming like a good thing. In fact, it continues to this very day.

I'm sure most of the German and Japanese soldiers simply thought that they were fighting for their countries survival, and that they were the good guys. I don't think that most of them really perceived of being on the wrong side. They were fighting a just, defensive war against outside aggressors. I think that regardless of anything else, to give your life for something greater than yourself is an honorable way to die. The German and Japanese soldiers who did so should be remembered for their courage.

	07-06-2004 12:35									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer should we remember and honor Soviet soldiers?

Remember? All of them. Honour? Depends what they died doing. Kicking the **** out of the Wehrmacht, yes. Maintaining an iron grip on Eastern Europe for the next 35 years? No.

	07-06-2004 12:36									#60
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AS, I honor soviet soldiers as well. And they invaded us, leaving 400 000 homeless etc etc. They were fed propaganda too. But unlike KH, I do think that propaganda is a powerful tool and really can mess up peoples heads to think stuff genuinely. So why hold grudges, there's no point and at the end they were forced to do it too. So as far as them fighting us, their soldiers should be respected the same time as well. They have fallen in here not necessarily having anything against us but forced to go along. So they are as much heroes, victims and human as everyone else in that field. They were doing their job.