18-06-2004 06:42									#31
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Yes perhaps extentions being requested from others might be a nice idea.

I am wondering though do we want to keep using the 48 hour turn limit or do we want to tighten it up a bit to 36 hours perhaps?

I think that the coup atempts (non designated turn players submiting the turn after the deadline passes) should be an internaly policed matter for the faction. If the leadership can control the team and see that no one makes an atempt at a coup then thats great for them but the POSSIBILITY of a coup is a good punishment for being slow with the turn because its automaticly corrects the problem.

	18-06-2004 19:51									#32
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Personally I would rather we have 48 hours to play, because I only have very strict time frame when I could play a turn. However it is most likely I won't have to play a turn and I'm sure there are faster players than me so I'll agree to go with whatever decided by the majority.

	18-06-2004 20:28									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar quote: it isn't realistic Theres a point where you have to sacrafice realism for fun.

I agree. I think that most of us here, and I'd like to think all of us, would not try to plant or work a mole in another faction, and as such, would be honest and leave a team they disagreed with. However the politics and diplomacy are part of the fun, and I think each team should be free to practice diplomacy, in the way that team decides. Moles will almost certainly be against the rules, but I want to keep diplomacy open and active.

As for turn playing, personally I'd see it as up to a faction how they do it. Some factions won't want to only let the official turn player play, whereas some will. If a faction wants me to enforce that only turns from a certain player are to be accepted, I will do as such. As for a limit, to avoid people going over the timelimit, we could have 24 hours with only one person (turn player) able to play, and after that anyone can. Personally I'd like to see the turn player position passed around, to let a few people have a go, but I know some factions will want set duties.

A realistic alternative is that any member of the government is able to play the turn and be accepted, but no-one else. This represents that a government member would have the ability to do as such, but a normal citizen wouldn't, while also putting the onus on the faction to decide on it's rules, and to put people in power who the team trusts to follow them.

If a member of a faction breaks a faction rule, it is up to the faction to discipline. If a member of a faction breaks a pre-decided game rule, it is up to the mod to discipline. I think turn playing and diplomacy, for the most part, should be based on factional rules, with only some rules (such as spying, moles, etc) actually as game rules. The different factions will likely have radically different values, and so different styles of play (if they RP at all), and so I'd like to leave the style of government and play up to the teams as much as possible, to allow them the freedom to have fun, and to play as a team. Having said that, I do understand the need for set rules, and as such, will go with the majority decision.

	18-06-2004 20:31									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] I think that the coup atempts (non designated turn players submiting the turn after the deadline passes) should be an internaly policed matter for the faction. If the leadership can control the team and see that no one makes an atempt at a coup then thats great for them but the POSSIBILITY of a coup is a good punishment for being slow with the turn because its automaticly corrects the problem.

I agree completely, especially on the faction policing. Maybe make it 24 hours when no-one else but a designated player can play the turn, and then another 24 hours where anyone can. Seems realistic, that other faction members would get restless with an inactive government, but also gives the faction 48 hours to play. Having said that, we did the last DG without any rules on who could play the game - it was all internal, and IMHO it worked well. Left it up to the factions to decide who to play, and what they're emergency timescales were.

	19-06-2004 22:20									#35
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There is a trick and I want to know if it's something we're going to allow. Maybe Impaler should describe it since he brought it up to me, but it's basically (I think) using go-to paths to find bases. I believe some people used it in the last ACDG, but some people find it distasteful, and supposedly a lot of PBEM's disallow it.

Also, what about the former reactivation thing? If you have two or more formers doing something, and reactivate one, then reassign it to its previous task, under certain circumstances it finishes one turn sooner.

	19-06-2004 22:24									#36
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jtsisyoda: I think both of those need to be discussed. Impaler found a method to find where bases are, but Kody found one that found out what base they were, so mapping other factions' teritory. Personally I'd prefer it wasn't allowed, but since it's hard to moderate against, it may be better to allow it.

	21-06-2004 19:16									#37
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Actually, it would be impossible to police it. Suggestion: why don't we all publish our HQ coordinates? We will search for other faction bases anyway, so this saves a lot of work to other teams.

	21-06-2004 20:15									#38
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How about we just open the map and starting position for every one in the start? We are so low we can't even keep a promise.

	21-06-2004 20:26									#39
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What do you mean HongHu?

	21-06-2004 20:32									#40
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It's fairly obvious...

We seem to be aproaching the demo game with such a low view of each other that we now presume cheating WILL happen, and so policing the cheating becomes the issue. In order to stop that, we want to allow cheats that are disallowed in most PBEM's so that there's less work for the CMN.

On the other hand, we could just say "This exploit is not allowed" and then trust each other not to do it. Drogue would still be needed to make sure that any new players read the rules, and that no unscrupulous player try and take advantage of the situation, but really, lets try and assume we will stick to the rules as laid down and not try and look for new exploits all game. We might have done that last game, but I for one think that ends up being no fun at all, and won't do it.

Or we could just allow every exploit in the book and watch the first team transcend on the first turn

	21-06-2004 20:46									#41
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Exactly. What I meant is that if I pledged that I would be honest in this game and not to play those exploit, I would be able to keep my promise and I would NOT need to be policed to keep my promise. And I assume if we say something is not allowed, then people will not do it. I do not think the other way, that people is going to do it whether it's allowed or not. We all think highly about ourselves, we think that we are smart and intelligent and thus, and we can't even make sure we stick to what we agree not to do? If somebody thinks he cannot do it, please just say so. If most of people thinks that they absolutely need it, then we allow it. If most people thinks that they can stick to their promise if it is prohibited, then I say we quit worry for that.

	21-06-2004 23:56									#42
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Having seen the map, I'd be against giving everyone base co-ordinates. Was fun last time waiting for when we meet, and I think the map gives a good opportunity for this. Therefore I'd be against allowing that bug, now.

	21-06-2004 23:59									#43
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What bug? There are three bugs.

	22-06-2004 00:37									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Having seen the map, I'd be against giving everyone base co-ordinates.

I was feeling frustrated that this was even discussed. Sigh.

	22-06-2004 00:48									#45
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IIRC I was the first one who used the click-in-the-dark method the previous ACDG. I just clicked a bit at random in the dark immediately surrounding our explored map and located some PEACE, PUT and Believer bases that way who were just out of sight and I already knew were there somewhere. However I never planned to make any systematic effort to locate all bases including those on the other side of Planet that way.
So personally I'm perfectly fine with disallowing the three ways (and any other possible way) to locate bases in the dark. Heck, even if it was allowed I probably wouldn't use it. Wasting my time clicking on every tile or dragging a unit path over the entire map every turn isn't exactly my idea of fun.

	22-06-2004 00:58									#46
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That's exactly why I'm hoping this ACDG will be better in that regard. People who wants to experiment with some of the tricks have already got the chance to do so in ACDGII. In ACDGIII I feel we have more of a chance for everybody to play a honest and fun game.

	22-06-2004 01:00									#47
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Yeah, even as Gaians start next to Morganites.

	22-06-2004 01:27									#48
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Obs, com'on, both those factions can find common ground as running Green/Wealth...

	22-06-2004 01:48									#49
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Who mentioned hostilities?

	25-06-2004 10:46									#50
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Yeah, finding out about those other base finding tricks really made me sad for the game itself... I love the game, and realizing that there were that many security holes was disheartening so hopefully this time it will be as HongHu has said.