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Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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Oct 2000
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...continued

3.5 The 1915 Genocide
In April 24 1915 the Ottoman authorities ordered the deportation of practically the entire Armenian and Assyrian Christian populations of eastern Asia Minor to Syria and Iraq, then part of the Ottoman Empire, and to massacre many of them. The genocide continued throughout the year. By the end of 1915, 1,500,000 Armenians and 250,000 Assyrians had been murdered. Many women were raped and children were kidnapped and enslaved to be brought up as Muslims. Many Christians – especially women - were crucified (the photographs are still extant).

About 200,000 Armenians avoided ethnic cleansing/massacre by converting to Islam. Entire villages converted to Islam to avoid massacre. Churches were destroyed or defiled by being turned into barns. A serious attempt was made to destroy every vestige of Christian identity in the region. Ottoman 'justification' for their actions concerns the claim that the Armenians were a fifth column and that there were Armenians in the Russian Army. This ignores that Russian Armenians had little choice in the matter, that Muslim Turkic peoples also served in the Russian army, and that Assyrians were few if any in the Russian forces. In 1914 the Ottoman Armenians had declared their loyalty to the state, despite isolated defections and a small uprising in Cilicia. The Ottomans falsely claimed that there was a rebellion in Van, and that what killing took place was in the context of civil war. This assertion is likewise false, since 250,000 Armenians served in the Ottoman army. Indeed, Armenian soldiers prevented the capture of one of the Ottoman leaders, Enver Pasha, after his defeat in battle by Russian troops. [35]

Most of the massacres were carried out by ordinary police, although a 'Special Organisation' was established, made up of common criminals released on condition that they murdered Armenians. [36] Furthermore, even the Russian Armenians were massacred in the Ottoman assault of 1918 - 15,000 Armenians were massacred in Baku. Armenian refugees were used for bayonet practice. [37] In fairness, it should be noted that many Arab villages in Syria aided the Armenian refugees, and some Muslim religious officials protested about the policy. [38] Turkey still denies the historicity of the genocide. Hitler justified his policies on the ground that the world did nothing when the Ottomans massacred the Armenians, so they would do nothing to stop his plans for those peoples he wished to eliminate.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion
The massacres of Muslims carried out by the Greeks in 1821 and later by other Balkan peoples as they attained their independence were as indefensible as those committed by the Muslims on the Christians. However, there are distinct nuances to those committed respectively by the Greeks and other Balkan peoples in the 19th century and those by the Khilafah. The Greek massacres bring shame on Greek nationalism, rather than Christianity; it was in the name of the former, rather than the latter, that such outrages were committed. Moreover, the Greeks were not a Government, but an insurgent group (obviously, this does not apply to massacres effected when the Balkan provinces had become states). The massacres committed by the Khilafah, however, are of a different character. Not even the Greeks would claim the divine inspiration of Greek nationalism, and few would now justify the massacres. Muslims, however, precisely believe the Khilafah to be divinely ordered, and that jihad is indeed divinely inspired. It was in the name of the Khilafah and jihad that the genocide was committed.

Furthermore, the Khilafah was the legal government of the Greek and other Balkan peoples; it had a duty to defend, rather than exterminate its subjects. This raises two problems for Muslims seeking the revival of the Khilafah: firstly, a Government that believes it is legitimate to commit massacres in the name of religion is scarcely an attractive concept for those who might be its victims; secondly, because the Khilafah is considered as divinely ordered, Muslims are left defending the idea that God ordered the massacre of innocent women and children because of their religion.

The problem is that the Greek massacres simply demonstrate the universal condition of moral depravity – original sin – that Christianity holds is true of all humanity. True Christians would in no way defend such actions. At any rate, Christians do not hold Greek nationalism (or any nationalism) to be divinely inspired. Muslims, on the other hand, cannot state this about the Muslim massacres. They were ordered by the Khalifah in the name of jihad – i.e. Islam. Hence, whilst all genuine Christians would unswervingly condemn the Greek massacres, Muslims would find it difficult to reciprocate.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

References
Smith, Michael Llewellyn, The Fall of Constantinople, in History Makers magazine No. 5, (London, Marshall Cavendish, Sidgwick & Jackson, 1969) p. 189.

Smith, The Fall of Constantinople, p. 189.

Smith, The Fall of Constantinople, p. 189.

Smith, The Fall of Constantinople, p. 190.

Smith, The Fall of Constantinople, p. 190.

Smith, The Fall of Constantinople, p. 192.

Stokes, Gwenneth and John, Europe 1850-1959, (Longman, London, 1966 & 1969), p. 129.

http://imia.cc.duth.gr/turkey/chro.e.html 1999.

Earle, Peter, Vienna 1683, in History Makers magazine No. 6, (London, Marshall Cavendish, Sidgwick & Jackson, 1969) p. 261.

Earle, Vienna 1683, p. 261.

Stokes, Europe 1850-1959, p. 143.

Fisher, H. A. L., A History of Europe, (Edward Arnold, London, 1936 & 1965), p. 726.

Peacock, H. L., A History of Modern Europe, (Heinemann, London, 1971), p. 216.

Peacock, A History of Modern Europe, p. 218.

Peacock, A History of Modern Europe, pp. 218-219.

Peacock, A History of Modern Europe, p. 219.

Fisher, A History of Europe, p. 882.

Peacock, A History of Modern Europe, p. 219.

Fisher, A History of Europe, p. 881.

Peacock, A History of Modern Europe, p. 220.

Ye’or, Bat, The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam, (Associated University Presses, USA, 1996), p. 191.

Fisher, A History of Europe, p. 881.

http://aina.org/martyr.htm#1743 1999

"In Asheetha, Zinger Beg with a force of 400 Kurds practiced the most barbarous cruelties upon the villagers of Tyari. The Assyrians bore his tyranny patiently for some time, but finally decided to put an end to it and decided to attack the garrison. They slew twenty of their numbers and besieged the remainder for the space of six days. On promising that they would immediately surrender and evacuate the fortress they were supplied with water by the Assyrians, when suddenly defying their besiegers a fresh conflict succeeded. In the midst of these renewed hostilities a company of 200 cavalry arrived from Badr Khan Beg, and turned the fortunes of the day. The Assyrians, taken by surprise, were completely routed, no quarter was given, and men, women, and children fell in one common massacre. The village was set on fire, and three bags of ears were cut off from the wounded, the dying, and the dead. And sent as trophy to Badr Khan Beg. All the chiefs of Tyari were killed in the massacre, besides thirty priests, and sixty deacons, Mar Shimoons’s brother Kasha Sadok, and his nephew Jesse, and many of his relatives. In the month of October 1846, a united force of Badr Khan Beg and Noorallah Beg entered the Tkhooma district, and committed ravages too horrible to be related. During the invasion 300 hundred women and as many children were brutally put to the sword in one indiscriminate slaughter; only two girls who were left for dead on the field escaped to relate the sad tale of this horrible tragedy.

The Kurds then attacked the men, who had taken up a most disadvantageous position in a valley, where they were soon surrounded by their enemies, and after fighting bravely for two hours gave up the contest. Numbers were killed in attempting to escape, and as many as one hundred prisoners, mostly women and children, were afterwards taken from the houses, which were then fired by the Kurds, as were the trees and other cultivation in the neighborhood. These unfortunate victims were then brought before Noorallah Beg and the lieutenant governor of Jezeerah, as they sat near one of the churches, and heard their doom pronounced by those blood-thirsty barbarians: Make an end of them’, said they. A few of the girls, remarkable for their beauty, were spared, the rest were immediately seized and put to death" (Nestorians and Their Rituals, pp. 370) http://aina.org/martyr.htm#1743 1999

http://aina.org/martyr.htm#1743 1999

Stokes, Europe 1850-1959, p. 205.

Peacock, The Making of Modern Europe, p. 232.

Peacock, The Making of Modern Europe, p. 195.

Fisher, A History of Europe, p. 1040; Stokes, Europe 1850-1959, p. 205.

Stokes, Europe 1850-1959, p. 206.

Stokes, Europe 1850-1959, pp. 209-210.

Stokes, Europe 1850-1959, p. 211.

Peacock, The Making of Modern Europe, (4th edition, Heinemann, London, 1971), pp. 267-268.

Peacock, The Making of Modern Europe, p. 268

Lang, D. M., and Walker, C.J., The Armenians, (Minority Rights Group, London, 1987), p. 7.

Lang, and Walker, The Armenians, p. 8.

Lang,, and Walker, The Armenians, p. 8.

Lang,, and Walker, The Armenians, pp.7-8.




case closed

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 30-06-2004 at 10:29

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Oh gawd, here come the Greek nationalists.

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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Oct 2000
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strokes is a greek?
he's a gay english for crying out loud.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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YOU are a Greek nationalist, who believes that Turks have horns and cloven hooves for feet.

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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Oct 2000
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*yawn*

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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It's funny how you excoriate the Turks for not behaving like 20th Century civilized folks (and granted, their behavior in the 20th Century has been absolutely horrid) in the 16th Century, and yet say nothing about the treatment of the Greeks at the hands of the Latins.

What you seem to be congenitally incapable of understanding is that for their era, the Ottomans were by far the most tolerant of rulers.

And we've been down that Janisary argument with you before. It's straight out of 19th Century Balkan nationalism and has little to do with the reality of families trying to get their sons recruited. Families generally benefited by having a son in the imperial government.

All things considered, the Greeks greatly benefited from Ottoman rule. Taxes dropped from 50% to 8%. Piracy and banditry decreased (until the Jelali period). Trade increased. If your ancestors hadn't been such tools of the Russians, the whole Balkan peninsula would probably have been better off.

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Lancer sure hasn't lost his touch.

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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Oct 2000
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He's a one trick pony

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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Oct 2000
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oh and che you crack me up

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Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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.

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Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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bah
edited

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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While I was looking for pics to troll the obnoxious Greek I came across this one:



Best women ever.

Though I don't know what's going on with that chick on the right wearing the garbage bag.

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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you have a thing for drag queens eh?

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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well i guess that's why i've always got the blues

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you see the thing with make up teddy is knowing how to apply it

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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I do extensive modding for the game Europa-Universalis II specifically around the Ottoman Empire. For the last two and half years, I've been studying the Ottomans constantly. I'm such a nerd.


My favorite game of EU2 was playing the Ottos. I got to the Siberian Corridor ahead of the Russians and populated it with Turks all the way to the Pacific. I also grabbed large portions of Oceana and all of Australia, as well as a foothold on the west coast of North America, all of the coast of south Africa and some provinces in East Africa. I also grabbed the unafilliated portions of India as well as having one of the small southern states defect to me. This in addition to most of Arabia, half of Persia and all the Balkan provinces worthy of the effort up to Styrmark. Everything has been taken slowly but surely and converted to Sunni Islam so as to add rather than detract from out holy tech rate. Loads of fun, I wish my Turkish buddy played the game as I'm sure he'd get a kick out of it.

Sir Og is offline Sir Og
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I am really surprised how fond of the Ottoman Epire some people are.
The Ottoman empire might have been more tolerant than the rest of medieval Europe at some point but they never moved out of the Middle Ages.
I am sure that everybody alse whose ancestors were subjects of the would have a really hard time finding the glimpses of tollerance amid all the atrocities commited by the Ottomans.
My home town for example was burnt by the turks in 1878 so it's really hard for me to appreciate their tolerance.

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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They're clueless Sir Og.
That's why I make fun of them.

dannubis is offline dannubis
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my home town was burned by the germans in 1914. and i don't feel any hostility towards them

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because they've recognized they in fact did that. and the whole world too. they've also stopped doing it.

dannubis is offline dannubis
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i think they were still mad because what you guys did to troy ...
discussing arch nemesis relations is always fun

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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they couldnt be angry they didnt existed back then.

but for some reason they were/are pissed off yeah

Ancyrean is offline Ancyrean
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Og
I am really surprised how fond of the Ottoman Epire some people are.
The Ottoman empire might have been more tolerant than the rest of medieval Europe at some point but they never moved out of the Middle Ages.
I am sure that everybody alse whose ancestors were subjects of the would have a really hard time finding the glimpses of tollerance amid all the atrocities commited by the Ottomans.
My home town for example was burnt by the turks in 1878 so it's really hard for me to appreciate their tolerance.


quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22 They're clueless Sir Og.



I guess the point molly and che are trying to make is not that Ottomans never had committed any crimes against their christian subjects but that when compared to their contemporaries they were definitely more tolerant.

If your standard of tolerance is a total absence of any killings or mistreatments, then surely there would be few empires to survive the demands of such a standard. Putting forward examples of Ottoman killings does not detract from the assertion of their comparative tolerance.

That being said, in the absence of such a historical perspective, to admit that Ottomans were more tolerant than the rest is an unspeakable horror to many in the Balkans, whose perspective of the Turks is more shaped by what happened during their wars of liberation than by what would have happened if they were ruled by Catholic kingdoms during all that time they spent under the Ottomans.

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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besides that was internal affairs. trojans were also acheans and they wanted independece. where are you going re karamitros?
plus they still our chicks. unforgivable.

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
whose perspective of the Turks is more shaped by what happened during their wars of liberation


That's what your reformist books want you to believe Ancyrean.
(BTW che and mooly are lost cases and certaintly dont count in the equation).

And it isn't very bright either. How can our wars of liberation form our image of the turks?

i'm sure the turks formed our image of the turks (talking about old times and certaintly not just in the balkans).


anyway I see you still have a long way to go.

with friendly feelings I'm telling you this.

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 30-06-2004 at 15:51

Ancyrean is offline Ancyrean
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22


That's what your reformist books want you to believe Ancyrean.
(BTW che and mooly are lost cases and certaintly dont count in the equation).

And it isn't very bright either. How can our wars of liberation form our image of the turks?

i'm sure the turks formed our image of the turks (talking about old times).


anyway I see you still have a long way to go.

with friendly feelings I'm telling you this.



Gia sou, paiktis

If you take the periods of wars of liberation as periods of intense enmity and mutual killings and atrocities, that experience leaves no room for recalling the times when people were actually thinking they were better off with the Turks than with any other major power of those times -(The point that they were better off comparatively is already put forward soundly enough here, that is, if one doesn't consider the possibility that the whole body of comparative Ottoman studies is a grand plot to glorify evil Ottomans ).

For example, if you can imagine a course of history in which Turks never ventured out of Central Asia and the Balkans came under a Catholic power of say, 14th, 15th, 16th centuries, would the Balkans remain an Orthodox land? Or would it fall prey to the bitter political and religious hostilities of Christendom ravaging Europe at the time and lose its Orthodox identity? (clue: 4th Crusade (1204), reconquista (1492), 30 years war (1618-1648))

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@ Danubius: I don't feel hostile towards present day Turks.
But saying that Ottoman Empire was the pinnacle of tollerance in Europe just because for a short period of time there were even worse places on the continent is ridiculous.

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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Merhaba Ancyrean

What I'm saying is:
for example we fought the Bulgarians. Brutally. Are there bad feelings between us? No.

We were occupied by the Germans. hundrends of thousands died in that war. Are there bad feelings towards them? No.

You were doing something seriosuly wrong and exceptionally brutal and inhumane to have such a bad image not only in the balkan peoples but also worldwide.

Why this image was made is not folklore but real suffering. I refer you to the lenghty article I posted for this suffering.

I think all you do is simply cover your eyes

 
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