06-07-2004 20:35									#91
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A culture or an individual may define right and wrong for the culture or the individual i.e. morality. 'Evil' is a morality construct that is defined by a particular religion and which applies to the believers of that religion.

	06-07-2004 21:20									#92
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But SpencerH, for some reason which I'm unable to explain, since such moralities lack absolute good/evil, you can't apply the term good/evil to to ANYTHING!

[/Albert Speer]

	07-07-2004 01:01									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger There are no gods in Buddhism per se, there are these beings called bodhisattvas, who are basically humans who accumulated sufficient karma and enlightenment to be removed from the wheel of reincarnation.

I'd thought that if you got enough good karma (but didn't achieve enlightenment) then you might be reincarnated as a being that's more powerful and longer-lived than a human, a "god" of sorts, and if you got too much bad karma then you might be reincarnated as something worse than human like a hungry ghost or animal or whatever. But it's been several years since I studied buddhism at all, so I may be off in left field.

	07-07-2004 07:57									#94
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I'd thought that if you got enough good karma (but didn't achieve enlightenment) then you might be reincarnated as a being that's more powerful and longer-lived than a human, a "god" of sorts, and if you got too much bad karma then you might be reincarnated as something worse than human like a hungry ghost or animal or whatever.

Yeah, there are a few levels you can attain, so it's entirely possible to become a lesser god of sorts if you do enough good things. Oh, maybe like saving thousands of people in a shot or something.

Also you can be reincarnated into an animal or even an insect if you have a load of bad karma.

There's also the lowest level of Hell that you get sent to and never come out if you have been really, really bad. But I am not sure if that's kosher Buddhism or just some Chinese thing.

	07-07-2004 08:16									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Free will and omniscience are NOT mutually exclusive. That's based on a bizarre limitation of thought imposed by a determinist philosophy. Maybe people aren't machines, and our idea of cause and effect cannot be applied to ourselves. Are you familiar with the old saying about how you can't design a computer that comprehends its own workings?

The entire idea of Freewill was conceived by Christian theologicians because it was (correctly) determined that an individual cannot be held responsible if he could not ultimately select his own actions.

In fact, St. Augustine was in favour of destiny. Not till Thomas Aquinas did the Church started pushing Freewill.

Suppose at time t you have encountered Event R. Even though it appears that you might have actions A₁...A_m to choose from, eventually your choice would be A'. Suppose that the Judeo-Christian god is omniscent, he would certainly know about this. Since your choice is known before hand - acutally has been known since God created this universe - what exactly is your choice? None.

quote: Originally posted by Elok If he really wanted, he could presumptively alter the nature of reality so that two plus two is three and a rock can be lifted and stay on the ground simultaneously, or in some weird way match whatever hoop you hold up for him to jump through.

I do not think you can postulate the Judeo-Christian god can defy logic at will without conceding the argument. Since we humans comprehend this world through logic, making such an assertion is the same as declaring that your God is incomprehensible.

quote: Originally posted by Elok "But why couldn't God just make the world differently so people wouldn't choose evil?" Because evil is, like I said, the essence of contrariness.

I am not sure you made such a point. If you have, it does not appear you have provided any argument it.

However, regarding the first sentence in the quote, it seems that the Judeo-Christian god is entirely capable of fashioning human beings in a way such that we will not choose evil even when we are capable of it.

quote: Originally posted by Elok My understanding of evil is as a force of nothingness, and asking who made nothing is like asking the chemical composition of a vacuum.

If evil is a force of nothingness it would not exist, and we would know nothing about it.

	07-07-2004 08:18									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger There's also the lowest level of Hell that you get sent to and never come out if you have been really, really bad. But I am not sure if that's kosher Buddhism or just some Chinese thing.

IIRC, Indian Buddhism also has a hell, but you can't go there for eternity -- at most, you'll only go there for a few hundred thousand aeons.

	07-07-2004 09:25									#97
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quote: wow this has gone in a different direction than my quoted post was meant to take this. I followed that quote up with...

Well Speer, if you didn't start threads and disappear maybe the debate would follow in your footsteps a bit better.

quote: my point was that an athiest or an agnostic has no right to call anything evil as his morality is inherently a subjective one.

And theists don't view morality subjectively? Of course they do, they pick and choose what they like or dislike from their religion and make up excuses for their departures from the standards they dismiss.

quote: Even moralities which claim to be absolute (Kantian, utilitarianism, etc.) still hinge their concept of good and bad on assumptions such as the universality of a maxim or the importance of human happiness.

Once you start measuring competing happiness', subjectivity is inevitable. Utilitarianism sacrifices your happiness for the sake of the community but that leaves utilitarians in a bind when the happiness being sacrificed is their own... It's the old "I believe in democracy except when the majority is screwing me" paradox.

quote: Furthermore, the simple fact that they are made by imperfect humans is enough to constitute them as subjective, imperfect moralities.

Wouldn't that be true for religious folk?

quote: I already assumed that religious morality was a simplistic human construct...

Then why argue one needs religion to be moral?

	07-07-2004 10:15									#98
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quote: Utilitarianism sacrifices your happiness for the sake of the community but that leaves utilitarians in a bind when the happiness being sacrificed is their own

Btw, that's quite a generalization. There are many utilitarians who wouldn't mind giving up some individual happiness for community happiness. Besides there isn't only kind of utilitarianism... Mill's is based on human liberty.

	07-07-2004 10:57									#99
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Agathon -

quote: The evolutionary explanation of moral beliefs makes no reference to unseen or supernatural entities and should be preferred for that reason.

And yet people have always believed in the supernatural, so how do we know that isn't part of our evolution too?

Imran -

quote: Btw, that's quite a generalization. There are many utilitarians who wouldn't mind giving up some individual happiness for community happiness. Besides there isn't only kind of utilitarianism... Mill's is based on human liberty.

Why is it a generalisation? Sure, some "utilitarians" don't mind giving up freedoms they don't cherish, but that isn't the deal they've signed onto by being utilitarians. Other people also get to decide which freedoms they have to give up based on their reading of the community's needs. For example, say the community says it will be better off if pot is illegal. The utilitarian who doesn't cherish the use of pot may give up that freedom without a complaint. But what if the community says religion has caused alot of strife and should be banned and the utilitarian is religious?

	07-07-2004 11:11									#100
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quote: And yet people have always believed in the supernatural, so how do we know that isn't part of our evolution too?

Sure, I'd agree with that, but the point remains: giving an explanation of why people believe in something is not the same as giving a justification of that belief.

For example: Jane believes that President Bush is an alien because she is suffering from a delusional mental illness brought on by watching Men in Black II. That's why she has that belief: it doesn't follow that it is justified.

On that note:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-03/religion.html

	07-07-2004 11:15									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker And yet people have always believed in the supernatural, so how do we know that isn't part of our evolution too?

"In God we trust -- but which one?"

	07-07-2004 13:01									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger "In God we trust -- but which one?"

I've always favoured the cannibal god of the Hamatsas myself- either that or the Mouse Apollo.

	07-07-2004 21:07									#103
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Beserker:

quote: Well Speer, if you didn't start threads and disappear maybe the debate would follow in your footsteps a bit better.

I didn't start this thread. Loinburger did. he just quoted me from a previous thread

quote: And theists don't view morality subjectively? Of course they do, they pick and choose what they like or dislike from their religion and make up excuses for their departures from the standards they dismiss.

yes of course... and they have a subjective book which they claim is the word of God.

quote: Wouldn't that be true for religious folk?

yes...

quote: Then why argue one needs religion to be moral?

say what?

	07-07-2004 21:25									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Suppose at time t you have encountered Event R. Even though it appears that you might have actions A1...Am to choose from, eventually your choice would be A'. Suppose that the Judeo-Christian god is omniscent, he would certainly know about this. Since your choice is known before hand - acutally has been known since God created this universe - what exactly is your choice? None.

Of course you had the choice. It was your choice. Just because you were such a person that would make that choice, doesn't make it not your choice.

	07-07-2004 21:31									#105
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UR: Your choice is still there. You still made it. What you refer to is not freedom but "the right to surprise god." If you think this invalidates the meaning of your freedom, that's your problem.

Humans "comprehend the world through logic" because logic is fit to the established rules of the world, space, and time. An omnipotent being could change those rules, and thereby change established "logic." And believers have been saying that God is incomprehensible from day one, but your side always counters that we're just full of crap, and stonewalling to control human minds, and so on, and so forth...

Evil is a force of nothingness and tending towards nothingness. Call it "entropy" if it makes you feel better. Evil is in a sense also the essence of free will-it is a being exercising its right to choose even when there is only one sensible choice. Sin (which is interchangeable with "evil" for my purposes) is choosing the different way not because it is better, but because it is different. Like teenage rebellion, you might say.

	07-07-2004 21:33									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Suppose at time t you have encountered Event R. Even though it appears that you might have actions A1...Am to choose from, eventually your choice would be A'. Suppose that the Judeo-Christian god is omniscent, he would certainly know about this. Since your choice is known before hand - acutally has been known since God created this universe - what exactly is your choice? None. Of course you had the choice. It was your choice. Just because you were such a person that would make that choice, doesn't make it not your choice.

It is not a choice if what you would pick has already been determined beforehand.

	07-07-2004 21:40									#107
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I disagree. Your choice is still there, even if God's knowledge of you is so complete that he knows which decision you will make.

	07-07-2004 21:40									#108
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Actually, your choice is invalidated from the referrence point of God - which is the whole point. The Christian standpoint is that you have free will whereby you can choose to do good, serve God, etc. or choose to sin and go against God. If God already knows which choice you will make before you actually make it, your "choice" isn't one at all from his perspective.

Last edited by Kontiki on 07-07-2004 at 22:01

	07-07-2004 21:44									#109
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Exactly Kontiki.

For those who still don't understand, consider an actor and a script. An actor in a film might appear to have choices, but his actions merely follow the script.

	07-07-2004 21:44									#110
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quote: believers have been saying that God is incomprehensible

If this is true, isn't religion incomprehensible, and therefore meaningless?

	07-07-2004 21:52									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Elok And believers have been saying that God is incomprehensible from day one, but your side always counters that we're just full of crap, and stonewalling to control human minds, and so on, and so forth...

If God is incomprehensible, you are merely speaking gibberish when you speak of this entity. The sounds are there but there is no meaning. Nobody is going to be convinced by gibberish.

As a result, theologians have been trying to construct proofs of YHWH based on logic.

	07-07-2004 22:06									#112
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quote: Why is it a generalisation? Sure, some "utilitarians" don't mind giving up freedoms they don't cherish, but that isn't the deal they've signed onto by being utilitarians. Other people also get to decide which freedoms they have to give up based on their reading of the community's needs. For example, say the community says it will be better off if pot is illegal. The utilitarian who doesn't cherish the use of pot may give up that freedom without a complaint. But what if the community says religion has caused alot of strife and should be banned and the utilitarian is religious?

Some utilitarians WILL give up religion if it is best for the happiness of the community to do so, which was my entire point if you actually read my post (I never said 'give up freedoms', I say 'give up individual happiness' which are things they themselves cherish). And yes, you are generalizing. Very much so. Firstly you never addressed the Mill utilitarians who believe the best for the community's happiness is to give as much liberty as possible for all the individuals.

	07-07-2004 22:21									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Actually, your choice is invalidated from the referrence point of God - which is the whole point. The Christian standpoint is that you have free will whereby you can choose to do good, serve God, etc. or choose to sin and go against God. If God already knows which choice you will make before you actually make it, your "choice" isn't one at all from his perspective.

As far as you are concerned, your choice is just that; although God may not what we would do in a given situation, we need to make that decision for ourself; few would want to be judged for decisions they didn't make.

	07-07-2004 22:24									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It is not a choice if what you would pick has already been determined beforehand.

Yes it is! You chose. Maybe God chose to make you such a person that you would make that choice, but that doesn't mean that God made your choice.

	07-07-2004 22:25									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If this is true, isn't religion incomprehensible, and therefore meaningless?

I thought we'd realized that already

	07-07-2004 22:52									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Verto As far as you are concerned, your choice is just that; although God may not what we would do in a given situation, we need to make that decision for ourself; few would want to be judged for decisions they didn't make.

"As far as I am concerned" is completely irrelevant in the context of Christianity and free will - as long as you assume an omnipotent God. The whole point of free will vis-a-vis Christianity is that we have been given the capacity to choose a righteous path or sin. From this, God will judge us and deem whether we are worthy. But if God knows from the the get go every decision we will make, any real time choices you make have no bearing on God's decision - he already knows the outcome.

Put another way, God knows every choice you are going to make from the day you are born to the day you die, so he already has all the necessary information to judge you before you take your first breath. So here's the dilema - if God has perfect foreknowledge of your actions, how can any "choice" you make have any impact on how he judges you when you die?

	08-07-2004 00:30									#117
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Theologians don't "reinvent" God in terms of apparent human logic, only describe him in those terms. Theology is mostly analogy. But at a certain point all analogies break down, when there is no comparable known to stand in for the unknown. Beyond that point, God may be called incomprehensible.

And God makes decisions not on what you do so much as who you are. What you have chosen to make of yourself. His foreknowledge of your choice does not anull its existence. Nor does it make free will irrelevant. Even in an open-and-shut trial with an airtight case, where everybody knows the defendant is guilty, it's still important to go through the trial for its own sake. The defendant cannot say he wasn't given a chance.

Not to mention that, again, you're all assuming determinism...the point of a living, thinking being is that it can grow beyond what it was made to be.

	08-07-2004 00:38									#118
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Actually, a stochastic universe wouldn't be any better for free will. It'd probably be worse, depending on how random.

	08-07-2004 00:54									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Utilitarianism sacrifices your happiness for the sake of the community but that leaves utilitarians in a bind when the happiness being sacrificed is their own Btw, that's quite a generalization. There are many utilitarians who wouldn't mind giving up some individual happiness for community happiness. Besides there isn't only kind of utilitarianism... Mill's is based on human liberty.

Reminds me of the time that Berzerker tryied to argue that I have to donate all of my organs or something, to keep up with my ethics.

	08-07-2004 03:52									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If this is true, isn't religion incomprehensible, and therefore meaningless?

What other pursuits give men carte blanche to wear gaudy frocks, ridiculous hats and swing burning handbags?

In public?