07-07-2004 01:56									#61
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Closed shops are ilegal in Britain, as they should be everywhere else.

	07-07-2004 02:00									#62
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quote: I also see in Ramo's first post "instead of fighting for higher wages... they fight for protectionism and anti-immigration" How exactly are they going to fight for that with the situations there are now? Boeing left washington state because of this crap(and because of some incentives for moving out of the US...), they will build most of the parts in their airplanes outside of the US,and the few parts that are built here will be built in Non-union states.

The enemies of the American working class are not the poor of the rest of the world, but the capitalists. The only path to liberation is working class solidarity and unionism. Chauvanistic policies encourage non-union labor, driving wages down, and giving employers ready-made scabs.

As for outsourcing, for example, Argentina's workers have done nicely what with their taking over of abandoned factories.

	07-07-2004 02:03									#63
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Closed shops have been illegal in the US ever since Taft-Hartley enacted in '47 (except for a few industries).

Last edited by Ramo on 07-07-2004 at 04:01

	07-07-2004 02:06									#64
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So Americans opposing unions on the basis that they don't like closed shops is a bit like Britons opposing Norway on the grounds that they don't like being raided by Vikings, isn't it?

	07-07-2004 02:07									#65
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Indeed.

	07-07-2004 02:09									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon One can gripe about some of the silly things that unions do, but they perform an important function: preventing the immiseration of the working poor. Sometimes they do this well, sometimes not. It's the same as when people gripe about the free market. It performs an important function, but has its drawbacks.

Of course coming from one of the people who gripe most about the free market. hehe.

But I strongly support the idea behind unions. There has to be a balance between workers and management. Unions are a great, non-governmental tool for workers to fight for their own rights and I think thats wonderful.

I don't always agree with unions though, as has been noted they can be selfish and problematic. But as with any conflict, sometimes one side wins, other times that side looses. Its healthy.

	07-07-2004 02:35									#67
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I think I ought to elaborate on my initial post. The main reason why US unions are as corrupt and incompetent as they are is because of our shitty labor laws. For instance, a few years after the NLRB was formed - basically the full legalization of unions, rules were established that barred representation proceedings for a year after the establishment of a contract, allowing incumbent unions to maintain their power indefinitely (and thus ignore the rank and file). At around the same time, the courts declared the sit-down strike, a spontaneous strikes not called by union leaderships, illegal. Cooincidentally, I'm sure, sit-down strikes tend to be incredibly successful. And shortly afterwards, Congress smacked down labor rights by passing Taft-Hartley, which allowed the Pres to crush any strike he wanted, prohibited secondary boycotts, and purged unions of radicals (among other things). And so on and so forth.

So, the reason why so many of our unions are corrupt and don't give a **** about rank and file workers is not that they're inherently corrupt organizations, but that the state and capital, in the name of anti-communism and industrial stability, have squashed labor rights and labor democracy.

	07-07-2004 04:12									#68
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Well DUH, sit down strikes should be illegal. It's basically trespassing. Oh no, unions want ALL the power to run the country. Well boo hoo... deal with the consequences as well. Unions can be good things, but as long as the government doesn't bend over and let the unions **** the country up the ass.

	07-07-2004 05:01									#69
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I'm just explaining why unions are as corrupt as they are. If you're fine with our labor laws, stop *****ing about their corruption, 'cuz those laws are directly responsible.

As for the legality of sit-down strikes, I'm just demonstrating the unreciprocal nature of labor relations between the actions of leadership and the actions of rank and file; actions by the rank and file - sit down strikes and wildcat strikes in general are unprotected, while union leaderships get their agreements enforced with minimal influence from those they represent.

Last edited by Ramo on 07-07-2004 at 05:17

	07-07-2004 05:31									#70
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Well in case anyone does not know, I am now a memeber of the local 501 union. I'm still an apprentice though. I will be 4 years as an apprentice and then become journeyman. But I get a $1.07/hr raise every 6 months. Right now I start at 60% of the normal Las Vegas strip (downtown and hospitals pay less) union rate. I will continue getting those raises until I make journeyman. And then we get no pay increases. Unless the union negotiates another contract. Our wages are stagnant. That's why I fail to see how people say we are demanding wages that exceed inflation.

Is the union good? well our union is a smaller union, and I don't see much corruption. Although we are loosely connected to the AFL-CIO I think. But that's only for the pension fund I believe. I'm still not sure of the setup.

but what I can say is the apprenticeship program is pretty good. They can really help train you. Getting engineering jobs at the casino with no experience is impossible. And it's not easy getting that experience.

Although some non union places like the Mirage actually pay their engineers higher than our union casinos do. I'm not sure if that includes a pension plan of any sort, and health coverage.

Now I'm union, I kind of feel obligated to vote democrat now . My union bulletin board has a few bad things to say about G.W. Bush. Although I find most of the guys I work with tend to be conservative.

So don't be dissing the local 501- or else!

Last edited by Dis on 07-07-2004 at 06:00

	07-07-2004 05:38									#71
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Let's put it this way. The employers will always have the advantage in wage negotiations. They know you have to eat. If you refuse, there are 20 other applicants who can do the job just as well. The employer doesn't lose money to eat his next meal if he denies an applicant. but the applicant has to give in if he is hurting, and needs money to eat. This is real apparant if you look at the wages for the guys constructing the Hoover (Boulder) Dam.

Unions were essentual at the turn of the century (not this past turn of the century ). While they are more corrupt because they have grown so large, they still serve an important role.

I think they work best when not all jobs are union though. They work good in Las Vegas where some hotels are union, and some are not. That keeps the union from getting too out of control. They have to adjust their demands to the market. The only problem is most new hotels opening in Vegas are non-union . There isn't much future for unions anymore .

Unions can be bad when they have a monopoly-type position over a profession. Such as the teachers union. Although overall it is good the teachers have a union. But some of the things I've heard from them

Last edited by Dis on 07-07-2004 at 06:03

	07-07-2004 05:45									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Could not agree more. In general, unions played an invaluable role in getting labour laws to where they are today (at least, in the west). They can still do some good, but I think in many instances they've become bureaucratic beasts. Personally, I would never, ever, ever, EVER join a union. The single greatest problem with them, from my perspective, is that they almost singularly reward seniority over skill and competence. They also make it nearly impossible to fire someone for poor performance. The job protection they provide is obviously of more benefit to unskilled labour. For qualified, traditionally "white collar" workers who have ambitions beyond sitting in the same job for 35 years, they are a massive career anchor.

my last job was the same way. And it was non-union. I got pissed because I was the best worker they had, but I had some of the lowest wages. At least now all the union guys are making exactly the same hourly wage where I work.

Unions

	07-07-2004 05:46									#73
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dp

Last edited by Dis on 07-07-2004 at 05:57

	07-07-2004 06:07									#74
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edited:

Proud member of the local 501 union

	07-07-2004 07:24									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Unless the union negotiates another contract. Our wages are stagnant. That's why I fail to see how people say we are demanding wages that exceed inflation.

Exactly. That's my experience with unions too. Our pay increases were not extravagant, particularly compared to the increases given to managers

Besides, everyone wants to earn more money. We all would like a pay rise. Why condemn unions for asking what we all want.

	07-07-2004 07:26									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Except we already have all of those laws, Sava. What good have the Unions done in the last 25 years? I can think of several bad things.

Read Fast Food Nation. It shows the problems that have been caused after the unions for slaughterhouse workers were destroyed.

The food we eat now is much more unsafe. Working conditions are more dangerous, in many cases fatally dangerous.

	07-07-2004 07:35									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I agree with Laz that unions have got us much legislation, and that's a valuble job, and a big plus. I also think we have a bit further to go, but that's all legislation. We don't need unions for that, we need legislation.

Unions provide the driving force behind workplace legislation because unions are the only organised group dedicated to looking after our welfare.

In the US, where unions are weak, politics is dominated by the super rich and corporations. They're the ones who make substantial donations to political parties. They have the money for lobbying. They can hire the experts who understand complex laws and how to shape these laws to their benefit.

Unions provide a political voice for blue collar workers and the middle class. A union can speak for the thousands of voters it represents.

	07-07-2004 08:18									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Currently the US has a happy medium between unions and management. Both sides are unhappy so I'd say we've got it just about right.

Considering the way Reagan reacted to the ATC's, that did not and does not appear to be the case.

	07-07-2004 08:31									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Would they be as good, without the experience? If so, why should they pay the other bus drivers more, when someone can do an equally good job for less money?

Good is not a point, good is a range.

Or rather, why pay for good when adequate cuts your costs?

quote: Originally posted by Drogue What's to stop a worker deciding he can get more money elsewhere and leaving to get a better job.

Because it is not a "free" (or openly competitive) market. There are only so many bus companies in a city, and moving to another city is generally not an option.

quote: Originally posted by Drogue Supply and demand, the company pays what the worker is worth to them.

Again, supply and demand does not work in most of the situations. Even when it does, the existence of a pool of unemployed workers means supply is always greater than demand.

quote: Originally posted by Drogue Well no. In the long term, inefficiency, wherever it is, will reduce productivity, and thus average income. It may make it a more equitable distribution, but it will mean there is less to distribute.

Not necessarily. Increasing wage does not automatically translate into lower productivity.

	07-07-2004 09:08									#80
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Unions
Union leaders
Capitalists
Socialism

	07-07-2004 09:09									#81
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your arrows are screwed up

Unions
union leaders
capitalists
Socialism

	07-07-2004 09:15									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Unions are the reason that you lot don't work 12-hour days 7 days a week, probably won't get maimed at work, will probably get a pension, and won't be sacked on a whim by your boss.

While there have certainly been progressive unions, I don’t think the data bear this out in the US. Up through the 1920’s, wages (adjusted for inflation) were generally rising, and unionism was generally too small to matter much. By the 1950’s and 1960’s US unions were starting to decline, but wages were still rising. Its only from about 1935 to 1955 that you see unionism rising and wages rising. This suggests that other factors, such as greater literacy, better education, and more capital per worker, were responsible for rising wages. Shorter hours and better working conditions were then a consequence of the rising incomes. I wonder if the effects might be the same in the UK.

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Closed shops have been illegal in the US ever since Taft-Hartley enacted in '47 (except for a few industries).

This is disingenuous. Taft-Hartley did make closed shops (US usage = must join a union in order to be hired) illegal, union shops (US usage = must join a union shortly after being hired) are still legal, except in right-to-work states. If you don’t want to join a union, its a bit like saying the Vikings didn’t burn down your house …. the Saxons did.

quote: Originally posted by Ramo actions by the rank and file - sit down strikes and wildcat strikes in general are unprotected

the union has to stand by its agreement, or else its name is mud. If employees don’t have to honor the contract, why would an employer sign it?

quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp The reason for this is that my union acknowledges that modern labour is more mobile/transient than before, and that "jobs for life" is not such a relevant concept these days.

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Because it is not a "free" (or openly competitive) market. There are only so many bus companies in a city, and moving to another city is generally not an option.

You two might want to get your story straight. Due to improved transportation and communication most labor is more mobile than before. Consider various migrations within the US: Deep South to Northeast and Midwest in the 1920’s; Dustbowl to California in the 1930’s; Northeast and Midwest to California in the 1950’s; Northeast to South in the 1960’s; Rustbelt to Texas in the 1970’s and 1980’s. In China, consider the current movement from rusting state industries in the Northeast to trade-driven industries in the Southeast.

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Again, supply and demand does not work in most of the situations. Even when it does, the existence of a pool of unemployed workers means supply is always greater than demand.

Henry Ford’s hiring of assembly line workers? Computer programmers? Biotech researchers? Silicon Valley types (originally)? MBA’s? As the economy changes, a pool of unemployed workers is by no means given. Supply and demand works.

quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Therefore the role of the union is to help them at work, and offer them opportunities in whatever the future may bring. Does that fit in with the images of Unions being put forward by some here?

This is essentially the “Exit Voicing” theory put forward by Freeman and Medoff. Critics of the “Exit Voicing” theory ask why a union is needed to do this. Wouldn’t it be in the interest of employees or employers to undertake such actions, depending on who would benefit from most them?

	07-07-2004 10:02									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith As the economy changes, a pool of unemployed workers is by no means given. Supply and demand works.

There is always a pool of unemployed people. That's what's considered the natural unemployment rate.

But the main point people are saying is that the unemployment is not determined just by market forces.

When unemployment declines, salaries increase. Business groups start complaining because operating costs have increased. They will then lobby governments and central banks to cool off the "overheating" economy.

Business executives prefer an excess supply of labour because this keeps wages from rising.

No, this is not some secret conspiracy. Instead, it is many individuals who happen to have the same common interest; keep operating costs down by keeping salaries down.

So we have a natural unemployment rate (people unemployed while they switch from one job to another) and a long-term artificially created unemployment rate.

We rarely ever reach an equilibrium point where supply equals demand.

	07-07-2004 10:04									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith By the 1950’s and 1960’s US unions were starting to decline, but wages were still rising.

Is that true? Any stats to back this up. I always thought that unions were strong in the 1950s to 1970s and only declined in the 1980s.

	07-07-2004 10:06									#85
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Oh, btw, there is also the minimum wage which prevents an equilibrium point in the supply and demand of labor.

	07-07-2004 10:24									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident your arrows are screwed up Unions union leaders capitalists Socialism

	07-07-2004 10:27									#87
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As a union member in an open-shop, I have always found non-union members leaching off the benefits irritating. Here is a free market solution. Require non-union members to work under whatever management made as an initial offer to the workers. Union members get the final offer. That way if the union really doesn't get anything, then people won't join because it's not cost efficient, not because they can get the benefits without paying. People who are leaching off union-derived benefits will suddenly have to pay to play, one might say.

	07-07-2004 10:41									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha wrong, capitalism lets the market decide.

I'm not talking about the vacuous PR crap, but real capitalism in which the capitalists bribe lawmakers to reduce worker safety. If the free market started to benefit workers, the rules would be changed.

	07-07-2004 11:01									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith You two might want to get your story straight. Due to improved transportation and communication most labor is more mobile than before. Consider various migrations within the US: Deep South to Northeast and Midwest in the 1920’s; Dustbowl to California in the 1930’s; Northeast and Midwest to California in the 1950’s; Northeast to South in the 1960’s; Rustbelt to Texas in the 1970’s and 1980’s. In China, consider the current movement from rusting state industries in the Northeast to trade-driven industries in the Southeast.

Yet the reality of such moves is vividly depicted in The Grapes of Wrath. You are talking about displaced workers who had no alternatives. They serve as testimonies of how a capitalistic system destroys the common man.

quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Henry Ford’s hiring of assembly line workers? Computer programmers? Biotech researchers? Silicon Valley types (originally)? MBA’s? As the economy changes, a pool of unemployed workers is by no means given. Supply and demand works.

A developed country has about 5% unemployment even in a good economy. I personally know aeroplane pilots who were forced to change fields because they couldn't find jobs and MBA's who became insureance salespersons. I know computer specialists who had to swallow 60% - 80% in pay cuts.

Supply and demand doesn't work in real life because people who have the $$$ have the say.

	07-07-2004 11:08									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Oh, btw, there is also the minimum wage which prevents an equilibrium point in the supply and demand of labor.

True.

The supply and demand curves are also distorted by the lack of information about prices (salaries). The S-D theory assumes that buyers and sellers have the information needed to make rational decisions, but in the job market, it is often hard to know what the prevailng salary levels are for a given job.

This is where the unions create another benefit. Pay levels for union jobs are routinely made public so that people have an accurate benchmark of the market.