15-07-2004 17:52									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Hydro M – you’ve just identified the differences between Gaians and other factions. The Gaians do not see an instance where humanity can’t fit in with the ecology of Planet, and even add to it: the Gaians see cooperation; others see competition From a Gaian’s point of view your choice is false because your choice is not inevitable.

Competition not existing in Chiron's ecology? The Spartans would like to note their ridicule with the basic lack of biological knowledge of your self-proclaimed environmentalists. No doubt your voluntary blindness to one half of reality will lead to your downfall.

	15-07-2004 17:58									#32
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GT - you think too big, in a way. Think of MWs more as a cell in a body. Do you know when a cell dies, or when it replaced? Does it hurt you? No? Planet can't tell, either. But, these cells serve important and incredibly varied functions. That is how I see Planet working. All of its parts are components in an incredibly complex organisms. By comparison, you DO notice when you are cut, punctured, lacerated, or otherwise abused – damage to thousands or millions of cells that tell the body that there is damage or worse being inflicted upon it. One cell (or MW) makes no difference; damage to whole areas of Planet or engaging in activity that damages Planetmind is another matter entirely.

To take this analogy further, one well recognized theory on the organization of life is that the first primitive organisms first got their energy from available compounds, then the sun (photosynthesis), and each other (predation). In the process of predation some cells incorporated others instead of digesting them, and as part of this incorporation they utilizing their abilities as a symbiosis (cell structure with a nucleus may be the first manifestation of this; a singular leap in complexity). In my view Planet is just like this with humans. Initially it may be hostile, or at least ambivalent. But if we prove to be advantageous we can be incorporated into its structure, providing massive benefits to both. This would not be a random process, either, since Planet is at least semi sentient and humans like to think they’re sentient .

You are almost right about orders from Planetmind, btw. As noted above, humanity will not be eradicated (or at least those that are sympathetic to Planet will not be), but portions of humanity may very well be ‘pruned’, to use phraseology from datalinks. The Gaians will listen to Planetmind very, very carefully…

Hydro

	15-07-2004 18:14									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Hydro You are almost right about orders from Planetmind, btw. As noted above, humanity will not be eradicated (or at least those that are sympathetic to Planet will not be), but portions of humanity may very well be ‘pruned’, to use phraseology from datalinks. The Gaians will listen to Planetmind very, very carefully…

In that direction lays the horrors of fundamentalism...

	15-07-2004 18:17									#34
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M – I did not say that there is no competition with Chiron ecology (you inferred that from my statement, likely superimposing Spartan ideology on my comments), only that conflict between Planet and humanity is not inevitable.

Earth ecology is replete with examples of cooperation within and between organisms: prides of lions, human civilization, ant hives; ant-tree symbiosis in the Amazon, ant-aphid symbiosis, human-plant/animal symbiosis (an interesting side topic here that PETA won’t like). [The DNA doesn’t care how it is perpetuated, only that it is; cooperation and competition are simply mechanisms to further its propagation – another interesting side topic].

The key is that cooperation can provide more benefits than antagonism, and this is certainly true with humanity and Planetmind. After all, Planet is locked in its tragic cycle of growth to attain critical mass and then, every hundred million years or so, crashing. This crash takes much of the ecology with it, in addition to the collapse of a pre-sentient Planetmind itself. It is a brilliant but failed Progenitor experiment. As Lady Skye points out, providing this basic insight and additional tools humans can help break this cycle and, in the process, subsume ourselves in something greater – just like the merging of the first cells in pre-Cambrian seas billions of years ago on Earth: it allows something much greater to eventually emerge.

Now, how’s that for big picture? Makes the vision of the non-Gaian factions seem rather parochial and, well, limited.

Hydro

	15-07-2004 20:05									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Hydro M – I did not say that there is no competition with Chiron ecology (you inferred that from my statement, likely superimposing Spartan ideology on my comments), only that conflict between Planet and humanity is not inevitable.

Perhaps conflict may be avoidable. But I get the impression only if humans do whatever Planet tells them, when we limit our population growth and industrial production. This isn't cooperation. This is refusing to compete, and as a consequence humanity harming itself.

quote: [The DNA doesn’t care how it is perpetuated, only that it is; cooperation and competition are simply mechanisms to further its propagation – another interesting side topic].

I know that. That's why I said:

quote: If harmony with Planet is beneficial for our survival and prosperity, live in harmony we will do. But if those mind worms dare cross with our intentions, then Planet be damned!!!

If cooperation is beneficial, cooperate we will. If competition is more beneficial for us, compete we will.

quote: Now, how’s that for big picture? Makes the vision of the non-Gaian factions seem rather parochial and, well, limited.

We aren't on the verge of transcendence. Eight years ago we stranded on an alien planet, and are facing sporadic and apparently random attacks by native infestations. None of us have researched Secrets of the Human Brains, Progenitor Psych, Centauri Empathy & Meditation etc..., so we don't know anything yet about Psi forces, sentient Planetminds, Progenitors, flowering cycles..., except perhaps for some mystical unscientific experiences. So for now I have every reason to mock any and all ideas of cooperation with Planet.

	15-07-2004 22:13									#36
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Gaians would argue that the exponential growth of population and industrial production are what caused the death of Earth, along with the irrational application of the results of the increasing technology by short-sighted political and social leaders. Therefore, growth is not necessarily good. The Gaians have prima facia evidence of what happens to a planet where the unbridled exploitation for short term gain dominates. They would, therefore, argue that growth and expansion are good to a point, and for them the definition of to a point is when it starts to cause harm to Planet. They remember Earth, and its sad lessons. Gaians know we will not be given a third chance. The other factions aren’t such quick studies, or have to clobbered a few times by cold, hard reality until they figure it out.

In the beginning the Gaians were mocked and pilloried for their fundamentalism. I always like Zak’s quote “let the Gaians practice their silly religion…”. But, it turns out that they were right. Regardless of the apparent mysticism of an extreme Gaian point of view, they do have a valid point that no system can sustain infinite growth since every system is finite.

I see the Gaian philosophy as evolving from their hard-science observations of humanity’s failure on Earth on a social/political front (wars, greed), and due to its unchecked exploitation for short term gain (environmental devastation, pollution, damage to ecosystems). This formed the basis for their empathy, or open mindedness, to what Planet actually is. As they gained more knowledge the Gaians and perhaps other factions had a dawning realization, as demonstrated by Dee’s quotes in datalinks. Unlike the Greek and Roman Gods, the Gaian philosophy did not spring in its final form from the minds of its leaders. It evolved in a literal and scientific way, as did that of other factions (Morganites excepted, of course).

The real question is IF humans want to become one with Planetmind, or if they want to destroy it as a threat.

Hydro

	16-07-2004 02:43									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Hydro Gaians would argue that the exponential growth of population and industrial production are what caused the death of Earth, along with the irrational application of the results of the increasing technology by short-sighted political and social leaders.

While this is true about Old Earth, we aren't on Earth here. Old Earth had a human population of billions. Here on Chiron we have a few ten thousands at the moment. So I doubt overproduction or unbridled growth would become a problem anytime soon. It's simply production or growth tout court, even a limited one, that already pisses off Planetmind (though most of us can't know that yet at the moment in ACDG3). This means that "ecological damage" in-game doesn't necessarily mean what we would understand under that term on Earth (all kinds of air, water, ground pollution etc). This also means that besides limiting production & growth and inventing cleaner technology, destroying all the xenofungus and worms in our neighbourhood is a valid third alternative to solve SMAC's "ecological damage", without that this would necessarily entail the destruction of ourselves or of our own human-induced terraformed ecology.

quote: They would, therefore, argue that growth and expansion are good to a point, and for them the definition of to a point is when it starts to cause harm to Planet.

I guess the Spartans would consider the definition of to a point to be when it starts to cause harm to the Spartan people, and not Planet as a whole. (And the Morganites when it starts to cause harm to their profits. )

	16-07-2004 03:05									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Hydro They would, therefore, argue that growth and expansion are good to a point, and for them the definition of to a point is when it starts to cause harm to Planet.

By the way, presently the only way not to harm Planet is by not existing. By merely being here, eating, breathing, we take away resources from other species.

	16-07-2004 06:41									#39
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M – Planet could hold millions or perhaps even billions of humans without a problem, if they lived within the Chiron ecosystem. This, indeed, is the point of it all. Planet is fully able and apparently willing to accept the human refugees, and it only reacts when humans (in their arrogance, greed, or ignorance) engage in specific activities that cause it harm as manifest by ecodamage, or by ripping a hole in it by use of planetbusters.

Your third alternative is possible. You can engage in rampant terraforming and build no eco-friend facilities (tree farms, hybrid forests, etc), and ecodamge will run rampant. You will get a nice set of fungal blooms and eventually trigger global sea level rise and more mindworm spasms – a negative feedback effect. So, yes, that is a third alternative. It’s just a stupid one.

I invite you to try your third alternative. It may be fun for a while, and for the rest of us it will be even more fun to watch the offending faction struggle with wrecked terraforming, mindworm outbreaks, and an imploding economy (“What do you mean six boreholes collapsed, and there are 16 locusts around Sparta Command?!!!”).

Yes, great fun indeed!

Now, lecture over. I have an appointment to demonstrate the proper preparation of xenobananas to a group of Gaian neophytes. My personal favorite is a chocolate xenobanana flambé. But, I forgot – the only flambé a Spartan understands is from the business end of a flamethrower…

	16-07-2004 08:54									#40
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Ah, but a flamethrower is all we need. Our high morale SAM rovers do a nifty job of converting those nasty little pests to . Proposal 3 would only highten the factor.

So, you could handle planet's native life the way,

OR

You could handle it the way.

Yep, it'$ really a tough deci$ion. I need $ome time to $it and think this over...

Last edited by Zeiter on 16-07-2004 at 09:11

	20-07-2004 19:46									#41
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The Gaians job offerings are very confusing. Not job seeker friendly at all.