11-09-2004 18:39									#31
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Wo gibt unseren Freund, die Klasse Winterfritz? We can't let this scenario be consigned to history!

	11-09-2004 22:03									#32
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Absolutely right. This scn deserves some discussion. Wither art thou, Winterfritz?

I'm glad you're back too, Allie!

	15-12-2004 15:02									#33
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@Techumseh, Alinestra and curtsibling: thanks for your kind words It's nice to know that there are some people out there who still play scenarios without Hitler in them

quote: Originally posted by techumseh With the arrival of the Hsiung-Nu, the game is turned upside down. 3 civs are wiped out within a few turns, and it's suddenly a struggle for survival against 1 power. So much for the contending states. Is this as it's supposed to be?

Sortof. This scenario was actually fairly (foolishly? ) ambitious in that it was supposed to depict both the Warring States and the Imperial Han eras of Chinese history (around a millenium of development!). The first period was characterised by, er, warring states - the various powers contending for hegemony within China. It ended around 220 BC with Ch'in's conquest of its rivals. The subsequent imperial era, on the other hand, was dominated by the struggles of a unified Chinese empire against the steppe nomads.

Hence I wanted the Hsiung-nu to be a force to contend with. For this reason they are probably somewhat overpowered; but this was the best way I could come up with to shift the focus of the scenario so dramatically. Their strength is also a good reason to unify China before their arrival c. 200 BC, making the otherwise leisurely early development period a bit more of a race against the clock...

I hope that's a decent (if a bit belated ) answer to your question... I'm more than happy to answer any other queries re the scenario, and very interested to hear any more opinions.

	15-12-2004 18:58									#34
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I assume there is a heavy tech paradigm (50-60?) since there is vast trade in those large cities?

	15-12-2004 20:12									#35
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I'm glad you're still around, even if it took you THREE MONTHS to respond. Now I'm gonna have to go back and try it again so I can remember what I'm talking about.

Historical, non-WWII scenarios often don't get enough discussion, and I thought this one merited some attention. It's a well done scenario on a fascinating and under represented period.

But I wonder if there's enough time in the scenario to develop a unified empire before the Hsuing-Nu come storming across the Gobi desert? My recollection is that I was just getting started attacking my first victim when these guys started wiping out other civs in their way. Then I was in their way.

	15-12-2004 20:53									#36
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"I was just getting started attacking my first victim when these guys started wiping out other civs in their way. Then I was in their way."

A familiar sounding situation!

	15-12-2004 22:36									#37
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quote: Originally posted by winterfritz It's nice to know that there are some people out there who still play scenarios without Hitler in them

I consider that unfair I always love to play good scenarios and this one is among the better ones IŽve played

IŽll come up with some feedback within the next few days

@ Curt: Btw, I also enjoyed (I am still enjoying) your Kingdoms of Steel too

	16-12-2004 04:58									#38
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just a quick Q: did you get the name for the scen from the movie Hero?

and i will let you know what i think of it will let you know soon enough

	19-12-2004 07:07									#39
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh But I wonder if there's enough time in the scenario to develop a unified empire before the Hsuing-Nu come storming across the Gobi desert?

Not unless you're really good . I purposefully made this scenario rather tough. It is possible though; I unified China before the H-N arrived in one or two playtests (out of don't-ask-how-many). Although that was on deity, so anyone looking for an easier game can always try a lower difficulty setting.

I had considered decreasing the turn increment to 2 years per turn, which would give a player more time to develop/expand before he has to deal with the pesky nomads. However, this would increase the length of the scenario to around 500 turns, as well as necessitating all sorts of changes to the tech paradigm. As the scenario was already lengthy (around 300 turns), and the tech paradigm, after extensive monkeying, was finally semi-accurately reflecting the historical rate of development, I decided to leave it.

Another solution I was mulling over was splitting the scenario into three scenarios - one depicting the Spring and Autumns period, one for the Warring States and one for the Han era. This would enable considerably more flexibility and accuracy in terms of available civs, turn increments for the various eras etc. But as it would also triple the amount of necessary playtesting/effort, I decided to shelve that idea... Perhaps in a future update

	19-12-2004 07:16									#40
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@curt: The tech paradigm, IIRC (not being on my civ2 computer at present), is actually easier than in vanilla civ2. This is because there are a lot of techs to research, especially early in the game when your cities are pretty lousy. The value I settled on is as close to the historical rate of development as I could get, whilst leaving some room for variation.

@DeathByTheSword: I have neither seen nor heard of Hero My working title during development was something along the lines of 'Rise of the Middle Kingdom.' But once I found out that some RTS had already stolen that one, I started casting about for alternatives. 'All Under Heaven' was supposedly the traditional name for the Chinese emperor's domain, so that's what I settled on.

	19-12-2004 20:43									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword just a quick Q: did you get the name for the scen from the movie Hero? and i will let you know what i think of it will let you know soon enough

Although I can't speak for Winterfritz on this one, the term "Tian-Xia" does mean literally "Sky Below" and it is a very common classical way of alluding to "the earth". It can mean "the entire unified country" as well as "realm of men" in a more spiritual sense (i.e. not heaven nor hell). Tian-Xia has been in common circulation in the Chinese tongue for centuries, if not millennia.

It is also my cousin's name, for which we tease him.

	19-12-2004 20:47									#42
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This scenario makes me want to write a few of my own. I'm currently reading "In Search of a Modern China" by Jonathan Spence, and "Red Star Over China" by fellow Missouri-graduate reporter Edgar Snow. Both contain very vibrant material about the foundation of the Communist leadership as a seemingly unstoppable underground movement. Fertile ground for a Civ scenario, if only I can make the time after work.

	20-12-2004 03:16									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia Although I can't speak for Winterfritz on this one, the term "Tian-Xia" does mean literally "Sky Below" and it is a very common classical way of alluding to "the earth". It can mean "the entire unified country" as well as "realm of men" in a more spiritual sense (i.e. not heaven nor hell). Tian-Xia has been in common circulation in the Chinese tongue for centuries, if not millennia.

Uh oh, someone who understands Chinese . I hope you weren't too offended at my random mix of old-school and new-style Chinese spelling. None of my sources could agree with each other on that one. It took me forever to even figure out which words were the same words but spelt differently. In darker moments I found myself wondering if the introduction of the new style was an elaborate Chinese Communist plot to confound western scholars and halt technological development as universities frantically re-organized their filing systems.

Although it is nice to know that my title wasn't based on one professor of Chinese history's totally unfounded assertion

	20-12-2004 03:29									#44
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@Alinestra: Your scenario idea, btw, sounds very cool. I had some similar ideas before I got all china-ed out over this scenario. Something running from the '20s to 1949. The Kuomintang, the Communists and the Japanese in Korea/Manchuria would be the main players. A few of the random warlords could be thrown in for variety. Or even Tibet, for invasion after the Chinese were unified . Something like Harlan's WW2 in China scenario, but with everyone playable and a more Chinese perspective. You should make the time - Chinese history is very under-represented in civ2 scens.

	20-12-2004 04:42									#45
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'fritz, FYI: http://www.tecumseh.150m.com/Warlor...ordscoming.html

	21-12-2004 01:10									#46
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I absolutely LOVE how this scenario turns from petty squabbles between warring rulers to surviving against the Xiong Nu. I admire this a lot and I'm glad you made it, winter. My only two complaints are it needs some graphics updating and more events. Other than that, it's spectacular. Honestly, it would probably make the game better by making it longer and decreasing the time the turns take up. Maybe have two seasons? There aren't too many scenarios which take a very long time to finish and I think it'd be very fun. I was looking for a scenario based on the book "The Romance of the Three Kingdoms" for a long time and I haven't found it, but this scenario is as close as it gets. Thank you.

EDIT: The Korean unit is a bit strong too for so early in the game. They whipe out my nothern force with their 5a5d. Were Koreans really that strong at the time?

Last edited by Helmut on 21-12-2004 at 03:33

	21-12-2004 05:53									#47
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@Helmut: I'm glad you like it

The Koreans are indeed quite strong - not really for a historical reason but simply to prevent Chinese expansion there too early. Chinese horizions didn't extend far beyond the Yangtze and Yellow River valleys until the empire was established. By this time you'll have the techs and the units to tackle the peninsula. But I did give the Koreans a low move count, which usually keeps them penned up in Korea. How exactly did your northern force get wiped out? Were you trying to invade, or did the Koreans attack you? They've never moved out of the peninsula against me in a playtest, bar one stray unit in a game as the Chao. I quickly chastised it for refusing to obey the commands of the almighty scenario designer .

There are few events because I wanted to leave the scenario as open-ended as possible. There is a lot of scope for making your own history here. So apart from barbarian generation and the odd city-taking messages/rewards, I didn't see the need for filling up the events.txt. Oh yeah, and the Ch'in are bolstered with the Shang Yang event, basically only because the AI usually seems to do really badly with this civ.

Feel free to mod any graphics you don't like. Perhaps if you ask someone like fairline nicely he'll do a units.gif for you...

BTW, I think there is actually a ROTTK scen - in the civfan downloads section, IIRC.

	21-12-2004 06:03									#48
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@tec: Looks really good Except that it's for ToT How far along are you?

	21-12-2004 07:08									#49
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Sounds like you researched and tested this scenario well!

quote: Originally posted by winterfritz to Allie Boco to Warvoid about El Aurens Uh oh, someone who understands Chinese Arabic. I hope you weren't too offended at my random mix of old-school and new-style Chinese Arabic spelling. None of my sources could agree with each other on that one. It took me forever to even figure out which words were the same words but spelt differently.

Just adopt TE Lawrence's attitude.

quote: "7 Pillars of Wisdom" publisher's editing notes Slip 20. Nuri, Emir of the Ruwalla, belongs to the 'chief family of the Rualla'. On Slip 23 'Rualla horse', and Slip 38, 'killed one Rueli'. In all later slips 'Rualla'. Lawrence Should have also used Ruwala and Ruala. Publisher's editing notes Slip 47. Jedha, the she-camel, was Jedhah on Slip 40. Lawrence She was a splendid beast!

	21-12-2004 07:09									#50
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It's 90% done. It has 4 Warlord civs, the Koumintang, the Communists and the Kwantung Army. Barbarians fill in for lesser warlords, plus pirates, bandits and Mongolian raiders. It starts in 1911 and ends in 1937, and is suitable for single player or multi-player. The Kwantung Army tech tree, events and some units are left to be done, plus the CPC needs a little work. Otherwise, it's playable now.

	22-12-2004 04:44									#51
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I am still very interested in this game but my efforts are hampered by the fact that my CD drive has a CDROM stuck in it and will not let go of it.

If anybody can help me force the damn thing open, I can get back to REALLY IMPORTANT stuff like Civ2. And playtesting tech's new scenario!

	22-12-2004 13:29									#52
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There's a ToT 'no-cd' patch I'll try and find a link.

In the meantime, I understand that repeatedly whacking your pc with a hammer until it relinquishes the CD is the approved repair method. It may help to swear at it a lot as well.

	22-12-2004 14:26									#53
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@ fairline

Another maybe helpful advise would be to dismantle the computer so far that *********** CD will get out of there on its own

	23-12-2004 04:41									#54
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I finally fixed it, using a suggestion from Adagio: restart the computer and try to take that sucker out while it's still booting.

That worked and now I can devote myself more sensibly to items of real importance!

Scenario-wise, I'm always up for playtesting anything. If anybody has a question about the Chinese language I can give it a shot. Most of my Chinese is Pinyin (the mainland Romanization system). If I ever get round to writing a Long March scenario, I will definitely be using the Pinyin names.

	23-12-2004 07:31									#55
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If you're interested, I can email you a zip of WoC. I could use some advice on the city names, plus I've used some Chinese characters in the title page and elsewhere without really knowing what they mean.

	23-12-2004 08:57									#56
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Okay, send away!

Amazonian(underscore)Mage(snailycurlyatsymbol)yaho
odotcom

	23-12-2004 09:48									#57
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2 zips sent. Let me know if they arrive.

	24-12-2004 15:47									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Boco Sounds like you researched and tested this scenario well!

Thanks Although it's only really because I use scenario development to justify buying expensive history books I wanna read

@tec: Your scen makes me wanna get ToT. To what extent (if at all) is it possible to modify ToT scenarios for MGE? I confess to knowing little about ToT and its differences compared to MGE...

@allie: I do have one question: do you know what the chinese symbol I used for the civil disorder sign actually means?

	24-12-2004 22:33									#59
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You can convert MGE/FW to ToT, but not the other way around. There's just a lot of extra features with ToT that can't be reverse engineered into MGE. So you have to get it.

You can download a trial copy here which you can purchase online for $10 US:

http://www.download.com/3000-2119-1...tml?tag=lst-2-9

	27-12-2004 07:13									#60
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Just got a bit of breathing space between Xmas and New Year. I don't know the meaning of that character offhand, but I'm emailing it to my brother (who is currently in Beijing and has a much closer knowledge of Chinese than I do).