 |
|
Max Sinister
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by La Diva
But do we want to get that detailed? If that would be true, then units could die of thirst crossing the deserts, or die of cold in the tundra, not just by sailing too far from shore in a galley.
|
The free Civ clone "C-evo" has this feature.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Tall_Walt
|
|
California
Dec 2001
time: 21:36
|
|
La Diva, excuse me but you're conflating terrain change concepts:
1. How you want terrain used;
2. How you command those changes;
3. How those changes appear on the screen;
4. How you impose a cost for those changes
I think you (and anyone else looking at the problem) will find separating these makes things simpler.
1. How you want terrain used;
Let's just assume that as now you get to choose in as much detail as you like.
2. How you command those changes;
Twenty squares surround a city. If you command each change in Civ3, you might command 10 terrain changes, clearing forests or jungles. You would issue 20 irrigation or mine commands, road commands, and rail commands. 70 commands with total manual control. Maybe only 20 commands should be issued, setting the end resulf for each tile. You also have to build workers and possibly recycle and rebuild them between roads and rails. And fix pollution. Potentially, we've talking something like 80 commands per city, or 4 commands per land tile. Perhaps this could be one command per tile unless one changed ones mind? I understand CTP does this.
3. How those changes appear on the screen;
You could see workers on the screen even if they aren't really units. Or, you don't have to look at every worker working: think about what Civ3 does: it doesn't just show you those 4 commands per tile, it shows each turn of those 4 changes--what is that? 10 shows oper tile? 20 shows per tile? I just played a game of SMACX: its Formers (=workers) just do their thing without the game showing each one every **** turn. Maybe SMACX gets away with this because the terrain is so weird so few people have any expectations of what the sequence should be, so automation is much more acceptable. At least in my view.
4. How you impose a cost for those changes
A unit is one way to impose a $ and time cost. Another is to just debit from the city or imperial treasury at a rate, perhaps proportional to population and improvements.
There's also a tile cost. Who says a mine has to cost a tile? Who says oil has to? Neither is especially accurate. Strip mining is pretty rare time-wise: it's only happened in the 20th century and once the minerals are stripped out, the land can be terraformed back to fields. Oil derricks and pump coexist with other land uses. Generally these use a very small fraction of the land, while modern roads use around 15% of land area (=3 tiles/city). Suppose you didn't have to decide between fields and mine? What if it was so simple the AI couldn't possible screw it up?
And is terrain improvement that essential a part of the game? Civ type games are sometimes called 4X games: eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, and eXterminate--the last usually optional. So, the question is, is terrain change a necessary part of exploitation? I frankly find it a side show: I want to do trade deals, do diplomacy, and build stuff, etc. Spending hours micromanaging terrain is not on my list of fun things--but that's me. I mean, once you figure out how many formers or workers to build, it's all busy-work if you micromanage and a sideshow if you don't.
One last comment: I think there's a terrain thread. That's probably where the rest of this discussion belongs.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kuciwalker
|
 |
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by La Diva
Nope, I haven't used anything but the largest map size for at least three years, in either Civ2 or C3, and my landmass is usually the middle choice, so I don't get as many continental neighbors but don't get stuck settling a floating postage stamp.
.. My fewest civ count was 6; my largest, I think, 9 - with that many, I have less room for expansion without wiping out civs, which I abhor. I won one game by total annihilation, and it depressed me for a week. Yeah, it's just a game, but it felt like I'd wiped out whole species instead of fictional nations. |
Then, at least in C3 (I haven't played C2 recently enough to understand) - there's something seriously wrong if you haven't fully explored the map (except possibly for areas inside other civs territory, and in C3C you can trade maps at Navigation, right after you get explorers) by Astronomy.
quote:
You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. |
And I'm also entitled to destroy the basis for your opinion if it is completely false 
quote:
A little intrigue can go a long way to breathe new life into what might otherwise be a hackneyed reincarnation of C3. |
It's not a "little intrigue" - that sort of intrigue, on a civ level, occurs between nations in terms of alliances and such - it's an entire new part of the game. It's as if you took an RTS and suddenly added city and improvement building to it, and cultural victories.
quote:
If I understand your explanation, your way is still player-intensive. I don't want to click a single tile as the target recon for a single plane. I'm suggesting a pre-digested report with most/all of what's going on, rather than having to manually "case the joint." That shouldn't be too hard to AI to handle. |
The point is that you can only click a certain number of tiles! You don't use one satellite to explore the whole map in one turn, that'd be stupid. You use one satellite to do one recon mission to one tile per turn.
quote:
.. My other point about the Spy Satellite is that it would include observation abilities that the current planes don't have, to detect City Imps under construction and to observe troop movements that are now fogged out. |
That should be part of the Recon ability anyway - satellites can't see anything planes can't. And of course you could have the Recon last a turn to see grayed out troop movement. Simply expand an old function, rather than add a completely new one.
quote:
Maybe it is only A/D, but according to Civ'pedia, the Pikeman "is an excellent defender, especially against mounted units." |
The civpedia is a piece of ****. If you want to find out anything about the game, go to the editor. Trust me, there's no anti-horse bonus even possible in C3.
quote:
However, the Airport can transport only one unit per turn, not at all like a ship. Not only that, but you must have an Airport at both termini, which means your significant cost doubles before you can even use the Improvement; plus, you can't Airlift eight tanks and mechanized infantry into enemy territory in a single turn. No, not the same at all, sir. |
That's like saying that the Tank has different stats than the Armor from C2, so we should include both in C4, since they're "not the same at all". Your only quibble here is with the power of the airport, not the actual implementation. Always expand an old feature if you can, rather than inventing something completely new.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
La Diva
|
|
USA heartland
Jul 2004
time: 23:36
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
There's something seriously wrong if you haven't fully explored the map ... by Astronomy. |
That's a false assumption, especially coming from a player who, if I've read you correctly, doesn't put much stock in exploration for exploration's sake.
.. On many maps, AI plants you on an isolated island, where it's impossible to reach the next continent until after Astronomy, when your galleys won't sink.
quote:
And I'm also entitled to destroy the basis for your opinion if it is completely false |
I can only hope you destroy your Civ opponents better. The basis of my opinion is intact, thank you. 
quote:
... "little intrigue" ... - it's an entire new part of the game. |
Civ4 is supposed to have some "new parts," right? So rather than simply reworking the old parts, especially after three major game incarnations, it's a perfect time to open the floor to new parts. Whether they make the final cut into Civ4 is up to Firaxis.
quote:
The point is that you can only click a certain number of tiles! You don't use one satellite to explore the whole map in one turn, that'd be stupid. You use one satellite to do one recon mission to one tile per turn. |
On what Earth does it take more than a year - or two or five, depending on when you acquire satellite tech - for a satellite to orbit the earth? Satellites circle the globe in a few hours, so the ratio of orbit to ground unit MP is within acceptable parameters.
.. As I said earlier, a single satellite can't vary its orbital path effectively enough to cover the whole globe with significant reliability, so the report would be A) incomplete, B) inaccurate, C) inconclusive but suspicious, and D) definitive on one or two items. A second satellite (each very expensive) would reduce the error factor by half.
quote:
That should be part of the Recon ability ... Simply expand an old function, rather than add a completely new one. |
Ain't nothin' wrong with new. Retreads can fall apart at highway speeds, and some game engines are better built from scratch.
quote:
If you want to find out anything about the game, go to the editor. |
Never been there, never wanted to play God that badly. Can you even get to the Editor while in the middle of a game? That sounds like a cheat to me.
quote:
That's like saying that the Tank has different stats than the Armor from C2, so we should include both in C4, since they're "not the same at all". Your only quibble here is with the power of the airport, not the actual implementation. Always expand an old feature if you can, rather than inventing something completely new. |
Your tank/armor analogy is off target, since my assertion was to add a unit. Revising a City Imp never entered the picture, especially in a thread about Units. The purpose of Airports and Airlift units may be similar, but CityImps and Units are not the same. As for "Something Completely New," if the tech pioneers hadn't invented "SCN" called microchips to replace radiotube mainframes, we wouldn't be having this dialogue. Be bold, Kuciwalker.
.. But I don't care how Firaxis fixes problems, just that they fix them. If they expand the Airport's capacity to move at least 3 units per turn, then the objective has been met.
My initial intent for the Airlift unit was to add another battle risk. If you don't keep your troops supplied with food, medicine, munitions, etc., their effectiveness will suffer. A layer of micromanagement? Maybe. Some players would like it, some would rather puke on it.
.. That's why I've constantly asserted that Firaxis needs to provide GameStart preferences to include or exclude player management for various facets of the game, depending on your passion for Sweating the Small Stuff. Let us simplify through AI or knock ourselves out "counting paperclips." There are plenty of fans on both sides of the aisle.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
La Diva
|
|
USA heartland
Jul 2004
time: 23:36
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tall_Walt
La Diva, excuse me but you're conflating terrain change concepts ... is terrain improvement that essential a part of the game? ... I think there's a terrain thread. That's probably where the rest of this discussion belongs. |
Unit commands belong in a terrain thread? Well, that's one way of looking at it. What I've read on the terrain-related threads deals more with the kinds of terrains to include, so unless I start my own thread for Orders or Unit Actions, this was the most compatible location for my comments.
I'll post anywhere you want, as long as my ideas are at least considered for inclusion in the report to Firaxis. Not every idea is a gem, but I think some of them have merit and would improve Civ4.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Ben Kenobi
|
 |
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:36
|
|
quote:
Why can't we stack worker orders like we stack City Production orders? Either a button or a menu feature to click a tile (GoTo), click an Order, click another tile, click an Order - you get the idea - then click the button/feature again to Implement, which would get the unit started and move focus to the next unit. - You still micromanage, but less often per unit.
|
Better to pay a certain cost for construction, in that you get your account debited, but you get the road built the turn after you request the road.
Same with other improvements. If you have enough cash, you should be able to build whatever you want in the next turn.
Roads over mountains, rather than having an opportunity cost in time, should have a greater cost in money, and nothing else.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
La Diva
|
|
USA heartland
Jul 2004
time: 23:36
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
What did that have to do with the post you quoted? |
It sounds like Ben is in your camp about AI-only workers, but has added an instant production concept based solely on the treasury.
This begs the question: Can you go into debt to finance production?
Rather than having to borrow from other civs, let there be instituted Savings Bonds (Treasury Bills, etc.) to generate cash from your own citizenry.
While not really germane to this thread, I have often wondered why my Diplomatic proposal menu includes asking to borrow money, when I have more money than the rest of the other civs combined. I should be able to offer to lend rather than borrow.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
La Diva
|
|
USA heartland
Jul 2004
time: 23:36
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
That doesn't answer my question; the quote and the response appear to be a non-sequiter. |
I disagree. I believe what Ben inferred was, "[Rather than change worker management, get rid of the workers and] pay a certain cost for construction [of worker tasks like roads, irrigation, mining, etc.]"
|
|
| |
|
|
|
La Diva
|
|
USA heartland
Jul 2004
time: 23:36
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Then he should've responded to something advocating the use of workers |
He did. My post wanted the ability to "stack" worker orders the way we can "stack" city production and queue up techs to research. I said, 'Let's be able to stack orders,' and Ben replied, 'Let those orders be handled instantaneously in a treasury transaction,' which means worker units are no longer needed to get the jobs done.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Tall_Walt
|
|
California
Dec 2001
time: 21:36
|
|
I agree with the "just pay for it" idea, though just as construction is limited by the number of engineers available in the real world, the number of things you can do per turn should be limited, perhaps proportionally to population. This should not limit your ability to declare what you want done, letting the improvements be made over however many turns it takes. Using Civ3 terrain improvements as an example, you could declare whether you wanted a tile to be developed as farm or mine (is there another choice??), and no intervention would be needed from then on. As new technology arose, the improvements would happen. No lack of control, just a lack of issuing commands to do the obvious.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
La Diva
|
|
USA heartland
Jul 2004
time: 23:36
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tall_Walt
... whether you wanted a tile to be developed as farm or mine (is there another choice??) |
Plant Forest
Clear Forest
Clear Jungle
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Max Sinister
|
|
Maybe for modern times: Plant Jungle (of course, Jungle would have to be useful for something... against the greenhouse warming f.e.)
|
|
| |
|
|
|
lajzar
|
 |
Japan
Jun 2003
time: 14:36
|
|
This is a draft listing of the various flags and attributes a unit should have as part of the unit design interface for modders. Before I bring this into teh main header post, I want comments on it. I am still on holiday - just came back to civilisation (ack, pun) from the Australian desert, and I don't have access to the civ files for reference, so I have probably missed stuff.
- move cost X in terrain Y (this modifies the unit's basic chassis type, use for units with an afinity for a specific terrain)
- marines (see the unit listing for a discussion of what this implies)
- parachute drop, range X (out of city)
- helicopter drop, range X (in and out of city)
- attack multiplier X vs chassis class Y
- defence multiplier X vs chassis class Y
- can/cannot be bribed (one of these should be default unflagged setting)
- does not displays national flag
- invisible until it attacks
- transport X units (for sea transports)
- can unload onto any coastal tile (for sea transports)
- aircraft carrier (can transport only air, not land units)
- can ford rivers with no penalty (this depends on whether rivers are civ3 barriers or civ2 arteries)
- counter-bombard (bombards back as a regular fight if bombarded and within range; applies to almost all sea units a hyper-advanced land units)
- aa gun strength X range Y ('bombards' air units if the mission would take the air unit within range)
- ...
- [various assymetric unit functions]
- police unit - acts as 2 units for policing duties
- scout radius X - can see all units in radius X. default is 1 tile.
Lots of people want land/air transports, for various reason, I dont think these would be a good thing (these are more typically attached to a specific infantry unit as an integrated unit, such as mech inf. and air cavalry; general purpose transports are reflected in the road/rail networks, and airport city improvements).
stealth/submarine
stealth/anti-radar (stealth aircraft)
stealth/hidden (guerillas, special forces, spies)
...Plus the corresponding "can see stealth/X"
Chassis type
- chassis - air (enables missions)
- chassis - float/NOE (nape of the earth flight, ie helicopters, SF hover tanks, can ignore forests/jungle/hill, reduced penalty for mountains)
- chassis - float/air cushion (ignores swamp/desert move cost, can go on coastal water)
- chassis - land/infantry
- chassis - land/cavalry (including horse, camel, elephant)
- chassis - land/wheel
- chassis - land/tracked (reduced penalty on soft ground due to lower ground pressure)
- chassis - land/seige (needs road for most rough ground)
- chassis - water/coastal
- chassis - water/sea
- chassis - water/ocean
Every unit should have exactly one of these chosen. land/seige is civ3's "wheeled" flag renamed, as these unoits don't necessarily move on wheels per se, and not all wheeled units have this penalty. The very earliest (ww1) tanks should have this chassis type.
Land/tracked possibly too much detail - this distinction is as yet not made in any civ game. It might also entail an increased move cost on very uneven ground such as mountains.
Float/air cushion has a normal operating altitude of a metre or three. Float/NOE has a normal operating altitude of anything up to a few hundred metres when performing CAS operations.
air unit missions
- bombard
- scout area
- relocate
- close air support
Figter escorts for bombing missions can be done by making a unit stack before giving a bombard order.
I'm not sure how close air cupport can be implemented, as I think it would require a stack of land units and air units, and land units don't have air missions. Perhaps any land unit with air units sufficiently close to support could have an "attack with CAS" option under a right click menu.
Fire and movement
Every land/sea unit should have exactly one of these flags. The last of these probably won't be needed for any units in the epic game, but will be relevant for moders trying to recreate small scale actions.
- normal - attack ends the turn for that unit. This is the mode for all civ 1 land units.
- hit and run - can move again after attacking, subject to having enough move points left. This is the mode for civ3 knights.
- blitz - can attack multiple times per turn. This is the mode for civ2 fast units and civ3 modern armour.
- fire or move - can move or attack each turn, not both.
Possible unit stats comon to all units are:
attack
defend
Move
bombard (strength X, range Y, can hit [land/sea/both] )
Build Cost
Maintenance Cost
Required tech
Required city improvement
Required terrain (in city radius)
Required special resources
Special resource requirements are probably better implemented as a build cost, and resources provide a stockpileable quantity erach turn.
Last edited by lajzar on 26-08-2004 at 04:11
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Tall_Walt
|
|
California
Dec 2001
time: 21:36
|
|
Moving workers to the terrain thread: that's probably the thread that's going to express opinions on whether workers should exist at all as the appearance of terrain improvement. If improvements appear as workers, they'll exist and do what the terrain people need.
An exception is sappers and combat engineers which have duties other than terrain improvement.
With regard to the list of capabilities, it may be worth distinguishing between normal military wheels, which can pass plains and (generally) deserts, and low ground pressure (tracks or large number of wheels) vehicles, which can pass jungles and swamps.
Float is a good idea for LAVs and such. You might want to add Ford, that is, the vehicle can ford a river without penalty but not go into a full water square.
I'm probably repeating myself, but I strongly feel Close Air Support (CAS) should be an air mission. These would add A/D to friendly units or subtract A/D from enemy units in a chosen tile.
Air/Land transports exist, such as USMC LCACs (Landing Craft, Air Cushion). Civilian air cushion transports are used in some conditions. A question is whether they go far enough inland to be significant in Civ terms.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
lajzar
|
|
Japan
Jun 2003
time: 14:36
|
|
quote:
Air/Land transports exist, such as USMC LCACs (Landing Craft, Air Cushion). Civilian air cushion transports are used in some conditions. A question is whether they go far enough inland to be significant in Civ terms. |
[other comments integrated]
quote:
air cushion vehicles are a prime example of chassis - floater vehicles. Yes, helicopters also fit into this category, it is that broad. the main reason air cushion vehicles dont make it into the list is that afaik the curtain cannot be practically armoured without weighing the vehicle down excessively, making the suspension type useless for combat vehicles, and those transport roles it is used for are already adequately covered by the modern sea transport unit. All existing land uses are in highly specialised terrain afaik. |
ETA: the above paragraph is a pile of carp. I've separated out air cushions and NOE vehicles.
Im stuck in Sydney till monday, I have barely enough money for food for the next 2 days, and my hostel has free internet. What else is there for me to do?
Last edited by lajzar on 22-08-2004 at 04:28
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:36.
Apolyton Time is 00:36. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
13-08-2004 19:42
|