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Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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Apr 2001
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  Old Post 04-08-2004 00:53
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they will get more income if they can sell more, which is what will happen when subsidies are reducd.

Japher is offline Japher
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  Old Post 04-08-2004 00:59
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quote:
they will get more income if they can sell more, which is what will happen when subsidies are reducd.


That's a rather blind statement, don't ya think?

Subsidies drop, supply increases, prices drop... They will sell more, for sure, but will they make more? Probably not.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
they will get more income if they can sell more, which is what will happen when subsidies are reducd.


I don't want to try to make you understand. You either have no understanding about the simple laws of economics, or you have a very hard time losing an argument, which causes you to be dishonest.

Adam Smith is offline Adam Smith
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  Old Post 04-08-2004 08:07
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Kid and LoA each have it about half right. Here is a rough sketch of what is going on.

The graph shows the US cotton market. The price of cotton is on the vertical axis, while quantity is on the horizontal. The domestic supply curve is S, the domestic supply curve with subsidy is S’. If the subsidy is $t per ton, then S’ is $t below S. In other words, domestic producers will supply a given quantity at $t less than they used to because they can pocket the subsidy. Pw is the world price, and there is assumed to be a perfectly elastic supply at this price. Initial equilibrium is at e. Domestic producers produce 0Q” tons of cotton, earning $0Q”cPw in revenue, and earn profits equal to ae’Pw. Domestic producers receive a subsidy equal to abcd, which is paid to them by taxpayers. The US imports Q”Q”’ tons of cotton from foreign producers, earning them $Q”Q”’ec in revenue.

Now the subsidy is removed. Supply shifts upward by $t to the true supply curve, S. US domestic production falls to 0Q’, and domestic earnings fall to $0Q’e’Pw. Imports increase by the amount Q’Q”, increasing foreign producers earnings by $Q’Q”ce’. Domestic producers lose the abcd subsidy, an amount exactly equal to what is saved by US taxpayers, so this is a wash. Overall the US economy (and the world economy) saves bce’, which is the cost of excess US production which could have been produced less expensively elsewhere in the world.

In sum, the price paid by consumers remains the same, foreign farmers sell more cotton to the US, and worldwide less resources are wasted on subsidized production.

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Adam Smith is offline Adam Smith
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  Old Post 04-08-2004 08:08
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Wheat Subsidies Inflate your Upload Space

The story is a little bit different in the Mali wheat market. The price of wheat is on the vertical axis, while the quantity is on the horizontal. The domestic supply curve in Mali is S, and the domestic demand curve is D. The subsidized world price is P’w, which is the net result of many different producers subsidizing wheat production. Initial equilibrium is at e, with 0Q’ supplied by domestic producers, and Q’Q”” imported from abroad.

Now the subsidy is removed. Supply shifts upward to the true world price, Pw. Equilibrium is now at e’. Domestic production increases from 0Q’ to 0Q”. The revenues of farmers in Mali increase to 0Q”aPw, and their profits increase from fdP’w to faPw. Imports decline from Q’Q”” to Q”Q”’. Consumers in Mali now pay abce’ more for their imports of wheat, an amount equal to the savings to foreign taxpayers, who no longer have to pay for the subsidies. From the worldwide point of view this is a wash. Overall consumption of wheat declines from Q”” to Q”’ as consumers in Mali react to higher wheat prices. There is a net loss of $e’ce for Mali consumers who no longer buy wheat. But there is a net gain of $e’ge worldwide because world producers are no longer producing wheat at a price greater than what consumers are willing to pay for it.

In sum, the price earned by Mali farmers and paid by Mali consumers increases, the amount of imports decreases, and worldwide less resources are wasted on subsidized production.

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Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam Smith
In sum, the price paid by consumers remains the same, foreign farmers sell more cotton to the US, and worldwide less resources are wasted on subsidized production.


Well if the subsidies aren't significant enough to affect the world price then what you say is true, but then the amount of extra production by the rest of the world will be small too.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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  Old Post 04-08-2004 21:56
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quote:
In sum, the price paid by consumers remains the same, foreign farmers sell more cotton to the US, and worldwide less resources are wasted on subsidized production.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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No one here was assuming that the subsidies aren't significant enough to affect the world price. Under the assumption that the subsidies affect the world price the price will of course change when the subsidies are removed and the demand curve is not horizontal.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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  Old Post 04-08-2004 22:30
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btw, which program did you use, AS, to make that graph. was it powerpoint?

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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  Old Post 04-08-2004 22:31
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ah, but i did.

from earlier

quote:
since world supply is considered infinite.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
ah, but i did.

from earlier

'since world supply is considered infinite.'



You're the only one considering supply infinite, I'm sure. I meant that the assumption is more commonly that the US and EU are dumping cheap food on the third world, not that the subsidies are insignificant.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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  Old Post 04-08-2004 23:00
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ah, but look at the cotton graph - the price remains the same, but forign farmers sell more, and have higher revenues, because Pw doesnt change with or without the subsidy, because its perfectly elastic, because supply is infinite.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
ah, but look at the cotton graph - the price remains the same, but forign farmers sell more, and have higher revenues, because Pw doesnt change with or without the subsidy,

First, a graph is different from reality. The graph is drawn under the assumption that the US could not supply enough food to the world to affect the world price. This isn't necessarily true. It's just an assumption. Maybe the world price is affected a little, but so little that it shouldn't be of concern.
quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
because its perfectly elastic, because supply is infinite.

Supply isn't assumed infinite, only too large for the domestic producers to affect the price.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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  Old Post 04-08-2004 23:21
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quote:
First, a graph is different from reality. The graph is drawn under the assumption that the US could not supply enough food to the world to affect the world price. This isn't necessarily true. It's just an assumption. Maybe the world price is affected a little, but so little that it shouldn't be of concern.


ah, but its not food - its cotton. and the graph is a model, one which is similar to reality, in many, but not all cases.

quote:
Supply isn't assumed infinite, only too large for the domestic producers to affect the price.


which is the same thing. the fact is that if the cotton subsidy is removed, price remains the same, but there will be more sales and more revenue going to foreign farmers, which will help them out and help third world countries.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 05-08-2004 00:50 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
ah, but its not food - its cotton. and the graph is a model, one which is similar to reality, in many, but not all cases.

The assumption is different from reality. You're arguing about what the assumption is, not whether price really remains constant. You can't make an assumption and call it proof.
quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
which is the same thing. the fact is that if the cotton subsidy is removed, price remains the same, but there will be more sales and more revenue going to foreign farmers, which will help them out and help third world countries.

I'm arguing that if you assume that the subsidies are so insignificant that they don't affect the price, then you can't honestly argue that removing them will help the third world. You're contradicting yourself.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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  Old Post 05-08-2004 01:48
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quote:
I'm arguing that if you assume that the subsidies are so insignificant that they don't affect the price, then you can't honestly argue that removing them will help the third world. You're contradicting yourself.


ah, but you forget - subsidies alter the price of domestic goods until they are competitive with foreign goods sold in that country. they effect the price of the domestic goods so that they are sold at the same level or lower than imports, thus stealing revenue from them, since people are as likely to choose one over the other. getting rid of the subsidy will increase the domestic prices back up, and make them no longer competitive, and third world makers will be able to sell MORE at the same price as before, resulting in more revenue = helps third world farmers.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 05-08-2004 03:59 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia


ah, but you forget - subsidies alter the price of domestic goods until they are competitive with foreign goods sold in that country. they effect the price of the domestic goods so that they are sold at the same level or lower than imports, thus stealing revenue from them, since people are as likely to choose one over the other. getting rid of the subsidy will increase the domestic prices back up, and make them no longer competitive, and third world makers will be able to sell MORE at the same price as before, resulting in more revenue = helps third world farmers.


You're just a bigo' flip flopper.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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  Old Post 05-08-2004 04:01
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oh, now i flip flopped? did i ever say that the third world stands to lose if subsidies in first world are removed?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
oh, now i flip flopped? did i ever say that the third world stands to lose if subsidies in first world are removed?


You're not talking about the presubsidy price are you?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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LoA,

Make yourself a world market graph. Remember, it's not just the US removing the subsidies. It's the world removing subsidies. For that you need a world market graph. A domestic graph would only apply to one nation removing subsidies.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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  Old Post 06-08-2004 01:55
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theres no need for a world market graph - AS has been kind enough to provide us with all the information we need on those two graphs which show both the domestic and foreign gains/loses. we can clearly see that when subsidies are removed by one country, there are gains for everyone else, and when the world removes all subsidies (the mali case) the farmers gain revenue. these are not just domestic graphs - they also show the gains made by foreign countries.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
theres no need for a world market graph


Just make one.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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  Old Post 06-08-2004 02:20
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ok, and how am i supposed to draw it without demand + supply curves of various countries?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
ok, and how am i supposed to draw it without demand + supply curves of various countries?


You don't do that. You just draw the aggregate supply and the aggregate demand.

I would do it but I don't have photoshop. The best I have is paint, which sucks.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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  Old Post 06-08-2004 02:25
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ok i drew it, then what?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
ok i drew it, then what?


You have to draw the effect of the subsidies now.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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It should look like this. It's only a .bmp I did on Paint.

Attachment: untitled.bmp
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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  Old Post 06-08-2004 02:41
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yeah, but the graph is misleading because it assumes that every acre of land is subsidized.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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  Old Post 06-08-2004 02:43
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and it doesnt show comparative advantages

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:

yeah, but the graph is misleading because it assumes that every acre of land is subsidized.

No it doesn't. When more land is used supply shifts to the right. It's just a simple supply and demand graph.


quote:

and it doesnt show comparative advantages

You can consider comparative advantages, but you either have to say the supply changes or it doesn't change. Which is it?

 
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