07-08-2004 07:48									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar w00t! The mindless banter post! That means that I win!

You don't win a debate by posting mindless banter, sorry.



If my point was truelly lost on you, I'm just saying that following the logic that liberating conquered land is an end which justifies any means, then the invasion of poland was justified. (And I guess the subsequent declaration of war from Britain and France unjustified)


Oh wait, you've already said that you don't care about holding double standards, didn't you? Not much point in arguing then, i guess.

	07-08-2004 07:52									#62
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Since when did I say that liberating conquered land is an end which justifies any means?


Putting a stop to atrocities such as the Holocaust and the Rape of Nanking are ends which justify a lot of means.

	07-08-2004 07:53									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Instead of 300 bombers dropping incendiaries for 4 hours and creating a firestorm that sucked the oxygen out of people's lungs 20 miles away, we had one bomb from one bomber. Indeed! You think less people would have died if the bomb not been dropped? Please.

Entirely possible.

quote: Although hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives were lost in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the bombings are often explained away as a "life-saving" measure-American lives. Exactly how many lives saved is, however, up for grabs. (We do know of a few U.S. soldiers who fell between the cracks About a dozen or more American POWs were killed in Hiroshima, a truth that remained hidden for some 30 years.) In defense of the U.S. action, it is usually claimed that the bombs saved lives. The hypothetical body count ranges from 20,000 to "millions." In an August 9, 1945 statement to "the men and women of the Manhattan Project," President Truman declared the hope that "this new weapon will result in saving thousands of American lives."

quote: Fortunately, we are not operating without the benefit of official estimates. In June 1945, Truman ordered the U.S. military to calculate the cost in American lives for a planned assault on Japan. Consequently, the Joint War Plans Committee prepared a report for the Chiefs of Staff, dated June 15, 1945, thus providing the closest thing anyone has to "accurate": 40,000 U.S. soldiers killed, 150,000 wounded, and 3,500 missing.

quote: "I thought our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives," said General Dwight D. Eisenhower while, not long after the Japanese surrender, New York Times military analyst Hanson Baldwin wrote, "The enemy, in a military sense, was in a hopeless strategic position. Such then, was the situation when we wiped out Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Need we have done it? No one can, of course, be positive, but the answer is almost certainly negative."

link

	07-08-2004 07:55									#64
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Funny that, I thought the war was started with Hitler reclaiming land conquered by the allies in the first world war. Granted, he got a little overzealous and couldn't stop himself.

Odd that he aimed for territories that weren't part of the German Empire first...

	07-08-2004 07:59									#65
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What UR posted makes the "life-saving" argument a little more plausible...

	07-08-2004 08:15									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed If that's the case, do you not think that this incident, which helped people realize the sheer scale of murder which we are capable of, deserves a moment of recognition?

But people already knew this- starvation in Kharkov, the Bengal Famine, hundreds of thousands dead in WWI- the only difference is the shorter time it took.

'Starvation was widespread, with Soviet civilians forced to eat dogs - until the dog supply ran out and people were forced to turn to rats, crows and birch bark. In the Ukrainian town of Kharkov, which was administered by the German army, 100,000 people died of starvation and disease.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/ww...vasion_03.shtml


More were killed in the Tokyo raids, and the Japanese took a delight in prolonging the murder of Chinese and Filipino civilians.


People use 'bushido' and not being a signatory to the Geneva Convention to excuse Japanese massacres and war crimes, and frankly, that seems to me a double standard.

Had there been a reordering of Japanese society in the same way that occurred in post-war Germany, I doubt many people, knowing the full extent of the atrocities in China, the death marches, the murder of Allied soldiers, the routine instances of cannibalism, the rape of comfort women, the germ warfare experiments on prisoners and civilians, would have such a benign view of Japan.

My partner's father knew one of the observers, Leonard Cheshire, and even though he was a compassionate committed Christian, Cheshire still thought that the dropping of the bomb was justified.

There are many ex-servicemen and women in Australia who still find it difficult to forgive the Japanese for the tortures and atrocities inflicted on them- and the lack of remorse, or understanding.

	07-08-2004 08:31									#67
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By the logic some use in this thread...If indeed the US is saving so many by invading the world, then the September 11th attacks shouldn't be remembered and there should be no moment of silence for the victims - after all, because of it millions have been liberated and saved from death! Had it not happend, these people would still be suffering and being slaughtered

It kind of changes the way you look at things when the situation is applied to YOUR people, doesnt it?

	07-08-2004 08:35									#68
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the "rape of nanjing" ... thats actually a very big understatement

	07-08-2004 08:40									#69
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You are wrong Jag, Everytime you play Axis and Allies, you help the Germans win in an alternate reality. So who really is on teh right side here?

	07-08-2004 08:58									#70
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Not true. I enjoy playing as England.

	07-08-2004 10:11									#71
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My brother was in northern PI. They were told to board the ships and they did. After sailing for two days, the ships were told to go back to the PI. Three or four days later they were told to board the ships again. This time they were at sea for 1 1/2 days and then again the ships were told to return to the PI, and when they landed there, they were told that a new weapon had just been dropped on Japan and the war would be over in a few days.

My brother is still alive today and is 78 years old. Because of the Bomb I can still talk to him on the phone. If they did not drop the bomb like some of you think that they should not have dropped it, my brother made not be here for me to talk to him. He would have died when I was just 16 months old.

The bomb save his life and the lives of many thousands other.

	07-08-2004 11:09									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Zero eh, **** everyone hooray nazis Once you stop caring about whats right things just get much simpler...

It must suck to be you -- and that is sad when I think about that.

	07-08-2004 11:10									#73
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom There are many ex-servicemen and women in Australia who still find it difficult to forgive the Japanese for the tortures and atrocities inflicted on them- and the lack of remorse, or understanding.

And as far as I know, Japan has not done nearly enough when compared to Germany, in dealing with its own historical atrocities.


Unless that has changed recently, the Japanese just plug their ears, close their eyes and sing, "la, la, la, la."

	07-08-2004 15:03									#74
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quote: Originally posted by SnowFire The Emperor probably should have been tried as a war criminal if all we care about is justice, and then we'd have had the full picture. However, I must admit that pragmatically, getting the Emperor on our side had certain benefits.

Yes. A lot of people, including old Brit and Aussie war vets, not to mention just about everybody in Japan occupied territories, argue that Hirohito should have been tried as a Clasa A war criminal.

	07-08-2004 16:19									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Since when did I say that liberating conquered land is an end which justifies any means? Putting a stop to atrocities such as the Holocaust and the Rape of Nanking are ends which justify a lot of means.

You where talking about things like "illegal occupation"


But anyways, "the end justifies the means" is the same thinking the otherside uses when commiting their atrocities - it's a rationalization that can justify pretty much anything.

Hell, the Nazis turned a defeated and impoverished germany into a prosperous, united, and stable superpower. Surely the actions of the Nazis where justified for the positive results they brought to Germany?

Of course they aren't - their actions involve the wanton slaughter of innocents. Oh wait, but so did ours. But that doesn't matter, because we where trying to stop the other side from their slaughter, right?

	07-08-2004 16:33									#76
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat So? Instead of 300 bombers dropping incendiaries for 4 hours and creating a firestorm that sucked the oxygen out of people's lungs 20 miles away, we had one bomb from one bomber. That's efficiency. Human beings have been searching for efficiency in warfare since the first Neanderthal. Better spears, bows, longbows, yadda yadda. Why does getting killed by one method mean so much more than getting killed by another? For that matter, why is getting killed by a bomb worse than starving, or dying of pneumonia, TB, typhus, or any of a number of other diseases that were starting into outbreaks in Japan, due to poor health and housing conditions and shortages of basic medical care and treatment? All war is immoral, and the a-bombs were instrumental in ending that war much faster than it would have otherwise. Sorry to spoil most everybody's happy, first-world liberal angst, but if you have the choice between two nasty, evil decisions, opt for the one that gets the job finished first.

Wow! I completely agree with MtG!!!! I think the thing with WWII nukes is very much a retrospective thing, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were seen as the progenitor of the nukes of the cold war and today, and the terrible prospect of mutually assured destruction. At the time, it was no different to an incendiary raid. People don't concentrate on the after effects the bomb, only the blast itself so that cannot be used. When you have total war, you're going to have this, so a politically correct notion of "war with limits" is ridiculous. If you're going to be silent, be silent for the war itself, not some part of it you find unpallatable relative to the rest.

	07-08-2004 16:47									#77
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quote: Why does getting killed by one method mean so much more than getting killed by another?

Could it be the 40 years of baby boomers and Xers getting inundated with the message "The atom bomb is going to kill us all, the atom bomb is going to kill us all?"

It might be the mystique of the nuclear that was created during the Cold War and then applied to a pre-Cold War situation that makes it OMG SO MUCH MORE HORRIBLE than firebombings of Tokyo and Dresden or such.

	07-08-2004 17:29									#78
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*reading the first page*
jesus people make a fuss about it.

This sounds like delibaretly thinking: hey **** those who died, if they didn't it could have come worse.

And that makes it of course a "no reason" to hold a minute of silence.

See it that way that they had to die so that others (probably many more) could have been saved. That alone justifies, that we uphold a bit of a sentiment for them and not ***** around like stupid 6 year old children.

	07-08-2004 21:36									#79
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Are my posts invisible in this thread?

	07-08-2004 21:40									#80
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd You where talking about things like "illegal occupation" But anyways, "the end justifies the means" is the same thinking the otherside uses when commiting their atrocities - it's a rationalization that can justify pretty much anything. Hell, the Nazis turned a defeated and impoverished germany into a prosperous, united, and stable superpower. Surely the actions of the Nazis where justified for the positive results they brought to Germany? Of course they aren't - their actions involve the wanton slaughter of innocents. Oh wait, but so did ours. But that doesn't matter, because we where trying to stop the other side from their slaughter, right?

Again, the "innocents" that we killed were manufacturing guns, bayonets, and gas chambers.

	07-08-2004 21:46									#81
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun

	07-08-2004 21:46									#82
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Some of them where. Some of the ones which the Japanese and Germans massacred where, too.

	07-08-2004 21:48									#83
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It's just a matter of cutting resources, right? Human resources that are used to fuel the war machine. Civilians. Massacres all of a sudden make alot of sense when you put people into terms of industrial resources.

	07-08-2004 21:48									#84
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Like the Jews? You're on fairly thin ice here.

	07-08-2004 21:49									#85
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Also, while you're at it, explain to me which non-Axis country had civilians creating gas chambers...

	07-08-2004 21:53									#86
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quote: Originally posted by alva

	07-08-2004 21:54									#87
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You do realize that there's a thread for the moment of silence, and that this is a thread for political discussion, don't you?

	07-08-2004 21:56									#88
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yes -- which is why I contributed my opinion here

	07-08-2004 21:57									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Like the Jews? You're on fairly thin ice here.

They wheren't producing weapons to use against germany, but like I said in my previous post they where percieved as a threat to germany and the Nazis made germany a stronger and more stable country through their actions.

And what about the massacres that where commited against others than their own citizens? Actually, wheren't most of the jews killed from poland and other occupied countries? Obviously they where all making bombs for the resistance or something.

	07-08-2004 21:58									#90
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@MrFun: Never mind, I thought that when Alva quoted an empty post, that you had posted your moment of silence here.