05-09-1999 09:59									#31
	Put an end to popups!

Agenda for meeting:

Discuss what the macro language needs to be able to do. Make sure we really need one! If we go to an off-line editing program for Clash save files, we probably will still need a macro language, even though the user may never see it.

Whether we go with a user-accessible macro language, or can do it all in some sort of off-line editing program, we need a good way for that system to interface with the core Java code. What is the best way to do that? Making the core code a set of job of beans has been suggested as one alternative.

Other agenda items?

I suggest that we all start our posts with an initial and number, so others can reference them easily. Since mca and I share and have met the start, I will use me1 for my first post.

Warning: I am using my voice dictation software to post my parts of this discussion. Weird typos may exist. If something non-dramatic goal shows up, try inserting a word that sounds the same!

me1:

Start of discussion:

I feel that an off-line editor will be the preferred way for most scenario designers to set up their variations. If we can also give the off-line editor some simple logic and loop capability, perhaps we don't need a macro language at all.

	05-09-1999 00:05									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Bl7
Re: Me6

1. Agree.
2. Agree.
3. I vote for the first and the third.

Blade

	05-09-1999 00:06									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Re: Blade

True, regarding performance, but a lot of people (myself included) go for budget computers. I won't be seeing an Athlon for quite some time....

However, having said that, the hotspot compiler seems to yield huge performance increases to Java code - well designed Java programs can now easily match C++ code with a little thought, since Java is much easier to perform good high-level optimization on (obviously 3D graphics etc. are exceptions).

Jim

	05-09-1999 00:07									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

me7

OK, now is there any serious speed penalty in using full java bean access functionality over plain vanilla java? It seems it shouldn't be large, but I gotta ask...

	05-09-1999 00:11									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

[mca5]
re me7

The overhead will be a method invokation and any sanity checks the method does.

[appendix: this is for member variable access only. Normal method invokation should be the same. ]

Martin
[This message has been edited by mca (edited September 04, 1999).]

	05-09-1999 00:15									#36
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Bl8
Re: Me7

Yes and No.

Yes: The system will call a method to read or write a variable all the time.
No: The code is better organized and you neednt check every time the value of the variable is valid or not.
(Rem: I use frequently Delphi. I try benchmarks, but there was only a few % speed different between the OOP and the component oriented application. I hope this is the same with Java.)

Blade

	05-09-1999 00:20									#37
	Suffering from ads?

me8

OK! So we have the levels described in ME6 more or less locked in. What specifics do we need for each of the levels? 3 Takes care of itself.

1. For the Standard Scenario tool, its mostly GUI work since the same stuff in the code to support the macro language will support 1.

So it looks like the largest issue for right now is to firm up 2. the macro language capabilities and data access. We've already talked a lot about it... any big contentious areas? F_Smith wanted XML... I think mca's example convinced me I don't much like it for programming. What do others think?

	05-09-1999 00:20									#38
	Suffering from ads?

JimC,

The HotSpot compiler is available (or will be) on Linux and Mac, or just run under Windows and Solaris?

Blade

	05-09-1999 00:23									#39
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hotspot availability for Linux / Mac?

I haven't got a Scooby.

(Scooby Doo; clue)

Jim

	05-09-1999 00:30									#40
	Increase Your PM Length

[mca6]

re JimC/me8 - language features.

If we agree that all serious hacking should take place in Java, I suggest the following features for the scripting language:

- Implicit variable declaration.

- Typeless variables.

- Control structures: for, while, if/then/else

- Event triggers and functions.

- Data access: the accessible data structures should be the same for the macro language and the off-line editor.

- Provided methods/functions: Any methods that the accessible components provide. This may be overkill (not from an implementation perspective, but to prevent "information overload" in the scenario builders :-) so alternatively: Anything reasonable that shows up during development.

- Operators: basic arithmetic and logical operators (and, or, not, +, -, *, /, <, >, >=, <=, =, != (<>)) Nothing fancy, like --, +=, <<, etc. is needed, I think.

- Probably something I forgot

[added:] Basically, I would be happy with Blade Runner's model, except for the explicit variable declarations he suggests.

Martin
[This message has been edited by mca (edited September 04, 1999).]

	05-09-1999 00:32									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

me9

Blade Runner has already done Serious work oulining the general macro capabilities in the links at the top of this page. Unless anyone has BIG problems with his general approach I propose we adjourn and look at his Ideas more carefully.

Agree with mca6 above...

The main message from the point of the ongoing java coding is that all the code should use java bean structure.

Is everyone happy? I know JimC is... he just escaped from coding in a dank cell all day

If its ok with everyone, thanks for your participation, and see you around. If its not ok, I need to pick up my wife and will be back in about 20 min.

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited September 04, 1999).]

	05-09-1999 00:36									#42
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Bl 10
Re: Me8

There is two possibilities: to find a Java macro language which is fit for our goal, or develop something ourselves.

1. Which is available:
a) Javascript interpreter (quite easy to use but somehow difficult to read)
b) NetRexx Java extension (difficult to use, the language powerfull and easy to read)
c) Basic interpreter (as is)
d) Java itself

2. What can we produce:
a) C-- or CPascal (the mix of the two language read my language description)
b) Pascal subset (This is my vote: structured, easy to understand, easy to read, etc.) [And I use professionaly 15 years ago...]
c) C subset (Also structured but somehow everybody like to write unchiperabl;e code with this language)
d) ?

Blade

	05-09-1999 00:50									#43
	Increase Your PM Length

Bl (I think 11)
Re: Mca6

I'm quite happy without type declaration. But I think the variable and constant declaration is VERY important. I use BASIC for serious programming for a few times ages ago. My (and my colleges) common mistake was mistype the variable names or outwrite an important variable. I spend more time to debug these kind of problems than the rest of the bugs altogether. My new suggestion:

Variable
One;
Two;
Three;
EndVariable

Constant
XXX = 10;
CCC = 1000;
VVV = "BLABLA";
EndConstant

If the user Mistype the variable the interpreter send a "Not declared variable" or "Not declared constans" error message.

(I need to call my wife. I'll be back about the same time like Mark.)

Blade

	05-09-1999 01:03									#44
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

[mca7]
re: bl11

How about making it an error to use any undefined variable, then (as opposed to an undeclared one), and of course an error to redefine a constant. Consider:

someFunction()
{
const theAnswer = 42;
x = theAnser + 111; // theAnser undefined. This error can be caught at compile time.
theAnswer = 111 + x; // theAnswer is constant and cannot be redefined/assigned to. This error can be caught at compile time.
const theAnswer = 111; // same thing.
}

(No, I don't like to declare constants/variables in specialized blocks either, but that's just a personal preference )

Martin
[This message has been edited by mca (edited September 04, 1999).]

	05-09-1999 01:23									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Bl12
re: Mca8

Aha. This is one of the basic of the structured languages: One needs to Define the variables.

Anyway. I have a solution for this problem:

There will be two possibilities:
Opc.1/The user can declare the variables and arrays.
Opc.2/ The user just define the variables and arrays.

In one module they cannot mix the two style.

Blade

	05-09-1999 01:29									#46
	Support Apolyton

[mca9]
re bl12

Damn, I thought I had that defined/declared thing right. Would you please elaborate?

Martin

	05-09-1999 01:34									#47
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Mca,

LOL, about myself.

Of course I mean Declare.

Blade

	05-09-1999 01:39									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

[mca10]

Aha!

But I'm still not quite sure what you mean with users can't mix the two styles. Can you give an example?

Martin
[This message has been edited by mca (edited September 04, 1999).]

	05-09-1999 01:58									#49
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Blade
Re: Mca

File 1:

//here start
Variable
One;
Two;
N;
VariableEnd;

SomeRutin(...){
One = 156;
To = 4455; // Error message: non declared variable To
N = One + Two;
}
// End of file

File 2:

//here start
SomeRutin(...){
One = 156;
To = 4455;
N = One + Two; // Error message: non defined variable Two
}
// End of file

I mean: If the system find the Variable keyword than ALL the variables in ALL the rutins inside one modul must Declared before use.

(I think we can enable for the users to mix the modul types (declared, defined) because there will be different people who use the system with different background and ideas. I like to use declared variables, somehow the whole program is more readible for me.)

Blade



[This message has been edited by Blade Runner (edited September 04, 1999).]

	05-09-1999 02:07									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

OIC! In the first example, allowing mixed styles would cause no error. Unless you require variables that were declared to also have been assigned a value (defined) before allowing their use.

Martin

	05-09-1999 02:12									#51
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Re: Me, Mca, JimC,

Thuesday I'll post my modified version of the macro language. Let say I'll wait a couple of days, and if there will be no comment or ask for modification I'll start to write the tokenizer and parser part of the interpreter probably after the next weekend.

Is that OK?

Blade

(Here is 11.10 PM so I go to sleep. Tomorrow I'll check the thread and I'll write the answers for the questions if any.)

	05-09-1999 02:24									#52
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Mca,

To enable the mix use for the users is possible but IMHO wrong way. I understand your point. There are more people who will write one or maybe two not built-in variable in a short and dirty rutin. They neednt any exact declaration. On the other side a pesrson who will write 3-5 Kb source file for his/her scenario will be happy with the automatic variable check from the interpreter. So I think I'll enable both of the style, but not mix in one modul. If somebody just start to typing his/her idea and wouldnt like to use the variable/constant declaration part, OK. IMO mix the two style in one modul will be a complette code mess, so I dont support this.

Thankx for the ideas,

Blade

	05-09-1999 03:02									#53
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Blade,

No problem, I'm glad that there will be more than one way to do things. I see your point, too, and I would typically support even type declarations and strong typing for anything but scripting, which tends (and sometimes needs?) to be too quick and dirty to bother with explicit declarations, types, and such.

Glad to be of service,

Martin
[This message has been edited by mca (edited September 04, 1999).]

	05-09-1999 03:27									#54
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Blade Runner:

Yes, your approach sounds good. But you will embarass us by having the macro language done Long before there's anything for it to operate on .

Blade Runner, mca, JimC:

Thanks for coming to the meeting and GREAT Job. We have 'seen the taillights' on one big issue.


Others: If you don't register any objections within the next day or so, say 18:00 EST Sunday Sept. 5th, our decisions from this meeting will be considered Locked In. Speak now or never

For a summary of conclusions look at the post labelled me6 on page 1, and up to about 10 posts thereafter.

-Mark
[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited September 04, 1999).]