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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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S&M is one thing, not everyone who is into S&M necessarily goes for the whole cat-suit wearing, whip brandishing Dominatrix thing, but the Dominatrix thing itself
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It usually takes the form of a dominant and submissive role which tends to be female dominance though thats not always the case, it's quite rare to have it the other way round.
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I seriously don't think that whole image is a true representation of female sexual power, I see it as cartoon-like. Just another caricature along with the Village-Peoples YMCA boys and the French Maid outfit.
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Regarding that quote, I have a feeling that many women would disagree, considering that it is often they that perpetuate it. Consider that, like for like, women tend to be more susceptible to fantasy-like situations than men, which includes more than we are discussing here. It is not a measure of female dominance, but representative to her of that, and the guy.
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Therefore porn doesn't need to feature women as sex-objects or as Dominatrixes, and isn't always just 'one more mucky male fantasy that demeans and objectifies women'.
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Do we classify porn as mere sexual representation or sexual representation designed to arouse? To arouse (and bare in mind it's a male audience) without personal contact or perception requires objectification, so any subject of porn is going to be an object.
And as for objectification itself, it requires one to objectify. People confuse the word to mean objective objectification, which is an oxymoron.
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(Of course some women want to be a sex-object sometimes, or a Dominatrix etc... )
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The former is necessarily submissive as previously shown, the latter is not; it is the amalgamation and the conclusion of a number of concepts and sexual desires, power-play and anticipation - note that when human sexuality is concerned, lucidity in arguments is required.
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There's alot of breadth out there, blaming 'porn' for anything is effectively meaningless. Not that I'm really really into porn or anything I'm just saying.
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Blaming porn in any case is fallacious. Do be blame J.D. Salinger for the death of Lennon, Plato for Hitler or Marx for Stalin? Of course not! It is the person taking the decision, in this case murdering that takes the blame. Quite sad that we conspire to attack more, fearing it is conspiring against us  .
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Dis
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Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by problem_child
You guys are talking as if porn is mostly pictures of men killing raping and torturing women. While material like that is certainly out there (and featuring men, boys, animals as well) most porn is [essentially] just pictures of naked women and their genitalia.
When you talk about negative images of women in relation to porn, what you really mean is that male hetero-sexuality is an inherently bad and evil thing and should not be entertained.
In my opinion there's no reason to believe that someone who is sexualy interesting to someone else is therefore demeaned by that interest, niether do I believe that male sexuality (especially heterosexuality) is somehow inherently hateful, exploitative and wrong.
Psycho's using porn as an excuse for their crimes (not that I could be bothered to read the sick f*cks thoughts) are so far removed from normal human emotions, that they can't see sexuality as anything other then hatred and contempt. Their not comfortable with their own feelings, their like that gay serial killer who hated his sexuality so much, he'd pick up and kill gay men and tell them as they were dying
"You made me do that".
It's all just sooo Catholic.
Mind you, this attitude exists in most Religious societies and America anyway. |
have you seen bukkake? that's perfectly legal in most countries.
But even the less hardcore stuff emphasises the money shot. Is that not demeaning? Although I admit I like the money shot, so what does that make me?
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Straybow
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Originally posted by molly bloom
Why don't people take responsibility for their own actions?
Don't ever say, 'yes, I knew that battering a woman to death whilst raping her was wrong, but gee, 'Hustler' made me do it' because it sounds so lame. |
Try reading what Bundy said.
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Some abused children grow up to be abusers, and some men and women who mistreat others use porn.
But they also drink alcohol, watch television, read the Bible, eat sugary snacks and fatty foods, and wear stretch polyester. |
Sugar or fat or stretch polyester don't induce or inculcate thoughts of sexual or violent nature. Even alcohol doesn't. The Bible doesn't deal with sexuality in explicit or non-euphemistic language.
Porn does. That's its purpose. I doubt you have an honest interview with Sutcliffe or Nilson to support your point, but even if you did no one is claiming that only porn stimulates the serial killer's appetites. |
It's irrelevant how explicit the Bible's language is.
'Both Albert Fish and Andrei Chikatilo blamed their sadistic bloodlust on frightening childhood stories. Does this mean we can expect Stephen King's children to top the murder charts? '
You can't predict what object, or image, or wording a person will find sexually stimulating, or that they will fetishize.
'Even truly traumatic experiences don't automatically create a serial killer. "Acid Bath Murderer" John Haigh, as a child, ran outside after a WWII bombing at his London home. The bomb came with "a horrifying shriek, and as I staggered up, bruised and bewildered, a head rolled against my foot." '
Some people find shoes and gloves to be erotically stimulating- others, hair, or lipstick, or anything in the realm of human imagining or experience, from nappies to overcoats.
'Some lust murderers claim that exposure to violent events ignited their thirst for blood. Ed Gein, among others, said that seeing farm animals slaughtered gave him perverted ideas. '
All you're trying to say is that only sexually explicit imagery provokes sexually explicit thoughts, which is hooey.
I love how you say alcohol doesn't provoke thoughts of a sexual or violent nature- what is the effect of alcohol?
Does it loosen inhibitions?
Is it implicated in violent crimes?
'Dahmer was antisocial as a kid, laughing when he saw a fellow classmate injured. He later became an alcoholic teenager, routinely ignored by his peers.'
How do you know that it doesn't 'provoke' or stimulate sexual thoughts?
All you're doing is taking the word of a plausible charismatic serial murderer as to what 'caused' him to kill women.
'According to Bundy biographers Michaud and Aynesworth, Ted's emotional growth was stopped in its tracks after he learned that he was illegitimate at age 13. "It was like I hit a brick wall," Bundy had said. Of course, he tried out every excuse he could rummage, so it's difficult to take his word on this when his family life appeared otherwise healthy.'
all cites from:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_...s_5.html?sect=1
Perhaps they should ban John Ford films:
'....many serial killers, including Gacy and Kemper, worshipped John Wayne, the American archetype of the lone warrior.'
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Straybow
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SG(2)… gone but not forgotten
Jan 1970
time: 23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
It's irrelevant how explicit the Bible's language is. |
That is probably the stupidest comment in this entire thread. We are discussing material created for sexual arousal and excitation. Sex in the Bible isn't even vaguely exciting, it is just mentioned as a fact of life. The Song of Solomon is intended to be romantic, but isn't even vaguely lurid.
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'Both Albert Fish and Andrei Chikatilo blamed their sadistic bloodlust on frightening childhood stories. Does this mean we can expect Stephen King's children to top the murder charts? '
You can't predict what object, or image, or wording a person will find sexually stimulating, or that they will fetishize.
'Even truly traumatic experiences don't automatically create a serial killer. "Acid Bath Murderer" John Haigh, as a child, ran outside after a WWII bombing at his London home. The bomb came with "a horrifying shriek, and as I staggered up, bruised and bewildered, a head rolled against my foot." '
Some people find shoes and gloves to be erotically stimulating- others, hair, or lipstick, or anything in the realm of human imagining or experience, from nappies to overcoats.
'Some lust murderers claim that exposure to violent events ignited their thirst for blood. Ed Gein, among others, said that seeing farm animals slaughtered gave him perverted ideas. '
All you're trying to say is that only sexually explicit imagery provokes sexually explicit thoughts, which is hooey.
I love how you say alcohol doesn't provoke thoughts of a sexual or violent nature- what is the effect of alcohol?
Does it loosen inhibitions?
Is it implicated in violent crimes?
'Dahmer was antisocial as a kid, laughing when he saw a fellow classmate injured. He later became an alcoholic teenager, routinely ignored by his peers.'
How do you know that it doesn't 'provoke' or stimulate sexual thoughts?
All you're doing is taking the word of a plausible charismatic serial murderer as to what 'caused' him to kill women.
'According to Bundy biographers Michaud and Aynesworth, Ted's emotional growth was stopped in its tracks after he learned that he was illegitimate at age 13. "It was like I hit a brick wall," Bundy had said. Of course, he tried out every excuse he could rummage, so it's difficult to take his word on this when his family life appeared otherwise healthy.'
all cites from:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_...s_5.html?sect=1
Perhaps they should ban John Ford films:
'....many serial killers, including Gacy and Kemper, worshipped John Wayne, the American archetype of the lone warrior.' |
So when Bundy says porn played a major role in his behavior that is to be dismissed? When others blame "frightening childhood stories" or witnessing violent events that is to be hallowed as truth?
I have no doubt that learning of illegitimate birth at 13 had a profound effect. Does illegitimacy inspire criminal behavior? Was he told of his illegitimacy in order to demean or depersonalize women in his eyes? I think not.
Alcohol doesn't put ideas into the mind, it just removes inhibitions. One must already have some kind of repressed aggression for alcohol to release.
Bundy didn't use alcohol or slasher films or meditating on his illegitimacy to feed his aggression, he used pornography.
And no, I clearly excluded the "only porn" claim. Please read what I wrote (which you included in the quote).
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Straybow
quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
It's irrelevant how explicit the Bible's language is. |
That is probably the stupidest comment in this entire thread. We are discussing material created for sexual arousal and excitation.
I have no doubt that learning of illegitimate birth at 13 had a profound effect. Does illegitimacy inspire criminal behavior? Was he told of his illegitimacy in order to demean or depersonalize women in his eyes? I think not.
Alcohol doesn't put ideas into the mind, it just removes inhibitions. One must already have some kind of repressed aggression for alcohol to release.
Bundy didn't use alcohol or slasher films or meditating on his illegitimacy to feed his aggression, he used pornography.
And no, I clearly excluded the "only porn" claim. Please read what I wrote (which you included in the quote). |
How do you know what went on in Bundy's mind?
How do you know exactly how much finding out he was illegitimate inspired his rage at women?
You don't- you're simply accepting what fits in with your preconceived notion of what you think helped inspire Bundy- sexually explicit material.
Does everyone who sees it have the desire to strangle, rape, mutilate, murder, once, twice, fifty times?
Clearly not.
You haven't in any case shown that Bundy wasn't being deceptive when he said this- the willingness to please and to hoodwink is a common feature of people like Bundy- as long as he gets his own way.
So you say Bundy didn't use alcohol- so what?
Jeffrey Dahmer did.
Do you have this notion that sex killers come in some kind of off the shelf format, that you pick a couple of things you think might motivate them and that these will be true for all?
Of course the Bible doesn't have to have sexually explicit language to motivate a sex murderer. That's the whole point of the psychology of psychopaths.
'3 victims between February 1968 and October 1969. Bible John, so called because, according to the sister of one of his victims, he always was reciting bits from the bible, with specific stories about Moses. '
http://www.murderuk.com/serialkillers/biblejohn.htm
Bible John- Scotland's serial killer. Now how do we know that the Old Testament wasn't his inspiration for killing menstruating women?
Psychopaths can fixate on violent films, women's hair or make up, the slaughter of animals, a violent event, or childhood abuse- but what you want to do is reduce a complex process into 'porn helped them kill people' therefore porn is bad.
Well, the Bible may have inspired Bible John to kill menstruating 'unclean' women- therefore, with your logic, the Bible is bad.
'Alcohol doesn't put ideas into the mind, it just removes inhibitions. One must already have some kind of repressed aggression for alcohol to release.'
Again, this sounds like eyewash.
Saying 'it just removes inhibitions' is presumably your way of saying that alcohol consumption isn't to blame in inspiring violent crime, which isn't the opinion of law enforcement agencies or psychologists.
How do you know that porn didn't 'just remove' Bundy's inhibitions, and that knowledge of his illegitimacy induced his detestation of women?
People react to news of their illegitimacy in widely differing ways, depending on the social context, their class, their religion, their country- I'd say finding out your 'sister' was your real mother would be a fairly traumatic event for any boy about to go through puberty.
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alva
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Republic of Flanders
Sep 2001
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
have you seen bukkake? that's perfectly legal in most countries.
But even the less hardcore stuff emphasises the money shot. Is that not demeaning? Although I admit I like the money shot, so what does that make me? |
Hey, you should try GGG one day. 
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This is just a power thing, as is everything else with a man..
"power and nothing beside it."
So what does it make you: a man. 
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That is probably the stupidest comment in this entire thread. We are discussing material created for sexual arousal and excitation. Sex in the Bible isn't even vaguely exciting, it is just mentioned as a fact of life. The Song of Solomon is intended to be romantic, but isn't even vaguely lurid. |
Maybe so, what the bible does do, is make it a sin, making it a sin will make people will guilty. As we all know, guilt is can be a very destructive feeling.
Now take that away and there is no problem, where no problem should be in the first place.
Then again, if you own more than 5 dildo's in Texas, you're commiting a crime.
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problem_child
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State of the Animal
Mar 2000
time: 05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
have you seen bukkake? that's perfectly legal in most countries.
But even the less hardcore stuff emphasises the money shot. Is that not demeaning? Although I admit I like the money shot, so what does that make me? |
I don't know what bukkake is, but the 'money shot' is totally natural... that's the whole point of porn... to get high of your own sex drive right, why would porn emthasise a shot of a womans little finger? (well, specialist porn maybe).
You're basically saying that because men are interested in vagina... sexuality is demeaning to us all, typical religious attitude, life-forms suck, biology is the work of the devil, digestion is satanic, respiration a sin... In my opinion men like kitty-cat coz nature programmed us that way, of course we like 'the money shot'... doesn't make us evil, doesn't make women demeaned, if we didn't have that drive it would be because we evolved different, there'd be no 'men or 'women', only asexual reproduction or something.
But are you capable of relating to females in terms other then the money shot?
Last edited by problem_child on 26-08-2004 at 12:42
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22-08-2004 21:03
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