 |
| |
|
|
Richard Bruns
|
|
NC, USA
Nov 1999
time: 06:13
|
|
LGJ Quote #1:
There are certain peoples who are better at some things than at others.
LGJ Quote #2:
There are just some things FE the british wouldn't be able to do as well as the chinese and vise versa.
LGJ Quote #3:
People can and do change...
LGJ Quote #4:
Not only that, but the mindset of the people was changed. Then after the occupation, it was changed again in only 1, count it, 1, gerneration.
---
I totally agree with Quotes 3 and 4. Cultural abilities are not inherent. People can change and all people have the ability to change to something new.
Yet you also keep saying that a culture has the same adavantages and disadvantages for thoudands of years, as evidenced by Quotes 1 and 2. How do you know that one generatiion from now the British mindset and culture will not be exactly like the Chinese? Then there might be no difference between the abilities of the two people.
You also said that the Vikings were better at seafaring. This is true. But WHY are they better at seafaring? Is it genetic? Or is it because they have experience with sea travel? Suppose the Vikings invaded inland Europe and settled down. Now suppose that someone else invaded their original homeland. The Vikings have now lost contact with the ocean. Will they still be better at developing seafaring technologies?
The cultural abilities model seems to say "Viking=Sea Tech +X%." This means that they would still develop such technologies faster even if they had no way of reaching the ocean. The abilities of a civilization should depend on where they live and what situation they have been facing.
I am saying that all people have the ability to do all things equally. They will have cultural advantages/disadvantages, but those should be based on geography and game history, not an arbitrary definition.
I personally would like to start with a 'blank slate' and have my people not have any attribute that affects game mechanics. But I understand that some people want to start with a different culture. However, the people should have the ability to change so that they can become anything.
---
And how's that? Ur model could have the very same flaws only in differnt way.
---
My model simply says that if the people decide to do something, they do it. The Europeans simply start to climb the tech tree. Their history is not held against them.
If two civilizations are at the same place on the tech tree and the people live in similar circumstances, they should have an equal chance to advance. There should not be an inherent modifier that changes their abilities.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Richard Bruns
|
|
NC, USA
Nov 1999
time: 06:13
|
|
PS:
Glak and Mark posted while I was composing my reply, so I didn't see the last two posts until my message went through.
I agree entirely with Glak. My original idea was all technologies are the same, but certain ideas given a different covering to add flavor.
The definition of culture that I was using was, "Artistic and Religious preference." I did not mean it to be the attitudes of the people about current social issues. Sorry for the confusion; I should have been clearer.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Lord God Jinnai
|
 |
St. Louis
Sep 1999
time: 23:13
|
|
----
Well, don't get me wrong, I like computers alot and think they're a really important innovation, but IMO they're not Nearly as important as Agriculture. I think industrialization easily beats computers for its importance. For one thing, no industrialization, no computers. Probably there are others too.
----
It is true that industrialization was a major breakthrough, one of the top ten i'd say, but i think they ranked computers higher because they've impaceted almost every facet of life from games, to messages, to bussiness, to well its hard to name what hasn't been afected. I'm also saying that because it affects everyone on the planet, even people who don't know what they are. Industrialization took much longer to achieve that. There are other reasons and there it is highly opened to debate. Some say the internet is the greatest leap forward ever because it created a "whole new reality".
Anyway if u get right down to it, all things were possible because of language.
----
What I meant was that you would get certain technologies automatically when particular basic techs get to a certain level. These "embedded" technologies might allow you to build new things just like single tech advancements. An example might be that Civil Engineering 15% would mean you've achieved the technology for Aqueducts. no other techs would be required, once you get to 15% you can build them. It would IMO add some excitement to the basic techs, and give us a place to put some techs that aren't "first string".
----
Sounds fine. I don't know about that particular tech. I think we should also limit these though.
----
Another very important innovation was the telephone, something that civ 2 does not even include. The telephone revolutionized society in many of the the same ways that computers will. The same is true for radio and television.
----
Yea the telephone was quite inportant, but didn't change the world in quite the same impact. Radio and TV were, but again not as much. I guess this is one way to figure out what techs were most important in civilization mark 
----
PS I think it would be fun to sneak an 'Easter Egg' into Clash. If you get a Really high score and have a thriving computerized society, you get a message saying that a group of people has created a game called, "Clash of Civilizations."
----
Yea i would have liked to one myself having to do why i use this nickname. I guess it would be the ultimate tech of "interdimentional travel" since well...just check out "El Hazard: The Wanderers" on the web. Its an anime and i'm the main villian. hehe
I was going to put someting a pic of that place and say on your first successful try you open a way to a world called El Hazard. I'd ask AIC before doing this to make sure of course.
[This message has been edited by Lord God Jinnai (edited November 19, 1999).]
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kull
|
|
El Paso, TX USA
Mar 1999
time: 22:13
|
|
Re: Computers vs. Industrial Revolution (a few thoughts on grouping)
Physical Power & Speed: A man is limited in his physical accomplishments by the strength of his body. You can do more with groups, but it's expensive and time-consuming. Harness an animal (horse/ox) and one man can do far more work (and travel faster). You can gain some improvements by using more animals, but the gains level off pretty quickly (ie you can't plow twice as much land with two horses and your chariot won't go twice as fast, etc). I'm generalizing, so bear with me. The Industrial Revolution was a major step forward, because 1) machines gave us the first power & speed boost since the domestication of animals and 2) you COULD achieve dramatic improvements in power and speed by making better machines. Technology was better than biology, in that respect.
Information: Mankind has progressed in a similar fashion in this area. From oral we soon proceeded to written, and languished there for a time. Information transmission was closely linked to physical speed. Inventions such as a series of hilltop beacons and carrier pigeons could improve upon the man/horse limitation, but they never entered the mainstream. The printing press was a major storage advance because we could duplicate information much faster, but it didn't address the speed problem. Not until the telegraph was information liberated from the physical transmission prison. To a large extent, the telephone, radio, and tv were simply improvements upon that principle. Although important from a storage perspective, the computer was hailed largely because of it's information manipulation capabilities. The Internet features it all: Speed, storage, and manipulation.
Genetics: From a Clash standpoint, this one is just too recent to have much impact. But it is a NEW revolution, albeit one with elements of both the physical and the informational.
But there's more. Until now, it's always been necessary to have a human at the controls. Whether running the machines or working the phones. The incredible miracle that lies ahead will come from the merging of the information and industrial revolutions. Machines operated by computers. Designed by them. No longer subject to the physical or informational limitations of the human operator or user. Think of it. The two fundamental human revolutions combined, for the first time. And the Genetic one will undoubtedly merge in the very near future. As we begin to dip our toes in this new ocean, we can barely conceive of all that is to come.
You may want to structure the tech tree accordingly.
[This message has been edited by Kull (edited November 20, 1999).]
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Glak
|
|
As far as humans go agriculture and writing are more important, they really changed the way we live. However I think as far as the world goes computers are more important. In the far future when cyborgs evolve into pure robots humans will only be remembered as a transitionary stage between flesh and steel (or more likely plastic or something like that) Just a note I am not talking some sort of horrible robot revolution, people won't even notice the changes. I mean people wear glasses to augment their vision and clothing to augment their skin.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Lord God Jinnai
|
|
St. Louis
Sep 1999
time: 23:13
|
|
These last post were kinda getting a little beyond what clash will ptob get to, but who knows? This project is far from complete and in a year much can change.
Also,on genetics, there has been much more done than u think and it will affect clash. Also i may impliment another tech after neural grafting (if u seen my tech model u know what i'm talking about somewhat). I would be bioelectronics. This is where part of the "electronics" and such are intrigrated with biomaterial more a "harmonious" existance, not just grafted on, but an itertwined relationship like our neural pathways react with the rest of our body.
Anyway i think i now have the four, well 5 right now, "secret techs" Dimetional Travel (as listed earlier with my easter egg), the former paragraph, bioelectronics, mater/energy conversion, Discovery of Psionics, and light speed travel. Of course all are very much so up for debate, but with there is atleast inconclusive evidence for all these. BTW if u have any ideas let me know and any final descions i don't want posted on this forum and/or in the tech chart because they wouldn't be secret then.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kanzid Stonebreath
|
|
Macclesfield, Cheshire, England.
Apr 1999
time: 05:13
|
|
I don't think that there should be hidden techs, because as soon as somone completes the game there will be a list of techs posted to places on the web.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
alms66
|
|
Louisiana
Oct 1999
time: 23:13
|
|
I personally don't think hidden techs should be included either. They add in sci-fi but this is a representation of history, not a sci-fi game. I say if it hasn't happened or if it isn't about to happen, don't include it.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Glak
|
|
I think it doesn't matter. I'm sure this issue can be debated at a later time.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mark_Everson
|
 |
Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:13
|
|
I don't think you could have really low transportation or agriculture and still get to electronics. The reason is that without and economy that is rapidly becoming modern, electronics would never be socially useful anyway. Sure, one inventor could make a simple circuit or something. But my working definition of a technological advancement is that it is invented, and that society can practically use it.( And has a desire to use it) So although some Romans knew of steam power, and had some rudimentary inventions in that area, they didn't achieve the technological advancement of steam power IMO.
But back to the original point...
To be at Electronics, a lot of other things need to be at about, say, 65%. So how exactly is Electronics starting at 65% supposed to be jarring to the player? I think 0% is Much more out of synch.
[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited December 06, 1999).]
|
|
| |
|
|
|
shimmin
|
|
Illinois, USA
Sep 1999
time: 05:13
|
|
Would it work to have the initial Electronics level start out as a weighted average of (f.e. 40% engineering, 40% physics, 20% chemistry) other basic tech levels at the time the advance is discovered?
The only problem I see with this is that (somewhat paradoxically) the sooner you discover something, the more work you have to do to improve it -- although this problem may not in practice exist due to two compensating effects
1) If you have a number of prereqs, research is cheap, and you should rapidly catch up to where you "should" be if you are initially behind. Conversely, if you start out far ahead of where you "should" be, then further research will be nigh impossible until other things catch up.
2) The player that discovers electronics "late" had to advance a lot of basic techs without the benefit of electronics (making it more expensive to do so), whereas the player that discovers electronics early will have to advance electronics seperately from other basic techs, but will be able to make those advances more cheaply.
I think in the end, the benefits from early discovery should outweigh the downside of advancing the basic tech to where it would have been had you discovered it later. (Or at least it is in principle possible that a properly balanced tech web could provide this.)
This is acheived by making the "modern" basic tech a prereq to contributing basic techs, either directly or indirectly (i.e. Electronics 75% could be a prereq to Computing, and Computing 85% could be a prereq to Physics), so boosting Physics to high levels to get "free" Electronics levels when you first discover it is impracticable.)
|
|
| |
|
|
|
shimmin
|
|
Illinois, USA
Sep 1999
time: 05:13
|
|
I had a minor epiphany as I woke up this morning. Rather than display the player's progress in basic techs as an absolute number, why not show it as a fraction of the highest level attained by any player at that point in the game?
The number used internally is still 0-100+ % (based on present day tech), but this avoids the problem of deciding whether it is more intuitive to start at 1% or at a level commensurate with progress in other areas at the time.
[This message has been edited by shimmin (edited December 15, 1999).]
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:13.
Apolyton Time is 00:13. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
19-11-1999 10:03
|