08-09-2004 12:09									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia I'd imagine this will rank up right there alongside the game Sweden lost to Belorussia in the Salt Lake City Olympics? As far as I am concerned Finland's tournament is over, we've bested Sweden and that's all we need. Edit: http://www.aftonbladet.se/ - "Outclassed and booed out."

No, this is much worse. Belarus was bad luck. 1-6 in our home arena is not bad luck.

	08-09-2004 21:15									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka US has no chances.

I disagree. Give Finland their due,you guys have some quality players and maybe this is your time to break out. But your history is not great to get to first.

I looked at Canada/World Cups

1976 Last
1981 Last
1984 not invited (West germany took your place)
1987 Last
1991 3rd in standings -- lost in semis
1996 5th of 8

But thats all ancient history lets look at recent world championships

2004 lost in Quarters
2003 lost in quarters
2002 lost in semis
2001 SILVER MEDAL


How about some comparitive stats-- The numbers are gold/silver/Bronze-- Last Gold and last medal

Czech/ 10 9 17 36 2001 2001 Gold
Sweden 8 15 13 36 1998 2004 Silver
Soviet/Russia 20 8 4 32 1993 2002 Silver *first medal since 1993
Canada 17 8 7 32 2004 2004 Gold
USA 1 4 4 9 1933 2004 Bronze
Switzerland 0 1 6 7 -- 1953 Bronze
Finland 1 5 1 7 1995 2001 Silver
Slovakia 1 1 1 3 2002 2003 Bronze
Germany 0 2 1 3 -- 1953 Silver
Great Britain 0 2 1 3 -- 1938 Silver
Austria 0 0 2 2 -- 1947 Bronze



I'm not saying that Finland can't win it all. I acknowledge the talent with the team and am in awe of Kippers goaltending prowess BUT historically the medal counts show that there has not been a big 7.

There has been a big FOUR of Czech Sweeden Russia and Canada-- each with more than 30 medals . Then a grouping of 3 with USA (9), Finland (7) and Switzerland (7)-- To that group I would add Slovakia -- with 3 medals since they started competing separately, that is quite an impressive showing.


So Finland is a talented team now with no history of being THE elite team. It will be interesting to see if they can throw off this history and win this thing. personally I think they will make a valiant effort and fall just short

	08-09-2004 21:30									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie No, this is much worse. Belarus was bad luck. 1-6 in our home arena is not bad luck.

As a Canadian, I can tell you that losing to Belarus looked worse to an outsider. Having the Czechs kick your ass is a reasonable thing ( while no fun) to have happen. They are a very good team and only their looking like crap in the preliminary round led anyone to think they were anything other than a real contender.

Losing to Belarus . .. its one thing to tie or lose to these teams in some preliminary match that doesn't really matter ( a little wake-up call but who really cares). But to lose to them in a match that eliminates you is a MAJOR embarrassment. I don't care that the game was close or Salo sucked or the Belarus goalie was fabulous. Against those truly second-tier hockey nations, the good teams find a way to WIN WHEN IT COUNTS.

SO IMHO losing to the Czechs ( by anything less than 10) could not equal that loss to Belarus. To exceed that, I fear you would have to get yourself eliminated sometime by France or Japan

	08-09-2004 21:41									#214
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WC medals count now? I thought all Canadians and Americans they don't mean crap because best players are in playoffs in NHL. So now you're turning it the other way? Of course, you didn't put the other recent histroy from 95 to 99. In which we made to the finals most times.

Or how about Olympics.. team Gretzky lots to our team. Looks like you picked the worst stats from us and left out the better stats all together out.

And it's all about the team. We rarely play with full NHL team. Last time was in Olympics, were we beat Canada in bronze game. Of course you don't bring this fact in light. You can disagree that we will win. But then again, you're not as familiar with this team as I am. Or our history it seems like.

	08-09-2004 21:43									#215
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Oh and I found this site about the history of the world championships

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/...lA19301969.html


I was wondering what happned in 1953 as both Germany and Switzerland medalled. The story reported o the site is as follows:

1953 Switzerland

GP W L T GF GA PTS
1 Sweden 5 5 0 0 43 14 10
2 Germany 6 1 5 0 23 46 2
3 Switzerland 5 1 4 0 13 36 2
4 Czechoslovakia 4 3 1 0 32 15 6

* -Canada absent. CAHA President WB George; "We spend $10,000 every
year to send a team in Europe to play 40 games to packed arenas.
Only to enrich European hockey coffers, in return all we get is
constant and unnecessary abuse over our style of play."

-First tournament featuring all-European countries.

-Germany awarded Silver medal despite 1 win. Czechoslovakia
returned home without finishing tournament as a result of the
death of Czech President Klement Gotvald.

-Talk that maybe Soviet Union would participate in tournament.
However, USSR only sent observers, including legendary coach
Anatoli Tarasov to scout the tournament.



-------------------------------------

The other great stories seemed to come in 1949-- read the note about the Czech team.



1949 Stockholm, Sweden

GP W L T GF GA PTS
1 Czechoslovakia 7 5 2 0 42 12 10
2 Canada 7 4 1 2 74 10 10
3 USA 8 6 2 0 59 22 12
4 Sweden 7 4 2 1 42 15 9
5 Switzerland 8 4 3 1 48 32 9
6 Austria 7 1 6 0 30 60 2
7 Finland 4 2 2 0 27 36 4
8 Norway 5 2 3 0 22 27 4
9 Belgium 6 1 5 0 13 67 2
10 Denmark 3 0 3 0 4 80 0



-Canada defeated Denmark 47-0, despite a system that was designed to
avoid unnecessary games between teams of clearly different calibers.

-Czechoslovakia wins tournament, this time with Canada involved. More
remarkable is the Czech team that won 1947 WC and tied Canada in
1948 Olympics, all died in a plane crash on Nov.8,1948.

-Finland records first ever WC wins, 7-3 over Norway and 17-2 vs Belgium.

	08-09-2004 21:44									#216
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And besides, throughout this thread from the beginning you have disagreed about our chances. Look, we're in the semis already, and no losses on our record. I think, only Canada has reached the same. Of course you should take the credit out that Czechs were playing bad first. You simply just underestimate our team, and say well it has some talent just to make it sound you appreciate some of the skill in it, while at the same time you seem to sound like it totally stinks. We can look at every statistics in this whole tourney, your statement just don't make any sense.

And you should know, that our junior pool is ever greater, and we will be invading NHL even more with the coming seasons. THe best talent is still to come in there and our junior situation is in whole different level than Czechs, Slovakia or Sweden. They basically have no one coming, or just few really good ones, where we are coming with a full wave, matched only by Russia, Canada and the US.

	08-09-2004 21:58									#217
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Here are other statistics from WC games:

92: Silver
94: Silver
95: Gold
98: Silver
99: Silver
2000: Bronze

	08-09-2004 21:59									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka WC medals count now? I thought all Canadians and Americans they don't mean crap because best players are in playoffs in NHL. So now you're turning it the other way? Of course, you didn't put the other recent histroy from 95 to 99. In which we made to the finals most times. Or how about Olympics.. team Gretzky lots to our team. Looks like you picked the worst stats from us and left out the better stats all together out. And it's all about the team. We rarely play with full NHL team. Last time was in Olympics, were we beat Canada in bronze game. Of course you don't bring this fact in light. You can disagree that we will win. But then again, you're not as familiar with this team as I am. Or our history it seems like.

Very familiar with your history-- I pulled out the all time WC stats because they were easily available and go back a long time. I do agree that Canada would have done much better with top teams. . . If you look at the site I quoted, you will see that Canada's representation through many of the years were essentially tiew 3 amateur teams .. . . If we sent our pros all those years, it is beyond question that Canada would have medalled more. But even with this weakened Canadian opposition, Finland did not medal much.

I then looked at the the overall stats in the only competition that mattered, the world cups and gave those.

Finally, since overall stats might not indicate the current situation, I looked at the 4 most recent world championships .. . But I can look at other things if you want

Olympics
2002- 6th
1998 3rd
1994 3rd

hmm-- no real evidence of first place type play there.


Oh and your vaunted 1995-1999 period

1995 1st
1996 5th
1997 5th
1998 2nd
1999 2nd

Oh and 1995 was notable in that it was the year an NHL lockout delayed the season and NO ie. ZERO NHL players played. So Finland's ONLY gold has a big asterisk.

	08-09-2004 22:04									#219
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So? we didn't have NHL players either? Not very deep the material in other countries then?

	08-09-2004 22:06									#220
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Well, we have become one of the challengers in the 90s. We don't have history of winning a lot. Your point is? History is on the side of the US? Not if we look at WC games in the 90s. What history? World cup history? YEah, because we werent' so good until 90s came. Are you saying your analysis on the coming game is based on this? Not very solid.

	08-09-2004 22:08									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Here are other statistics from WC games: 92: Silver 94: Silver 95: Gold 98: Silver 99: Silver 2000: Bronze

Lets fill in your gaps

1993 7th
1996 and 1997 5th LOL-- All those silvers prove is that you guys are good at being SECOND best. canada never aspires to second and in fact when we lose our chance for first, the team often tumbles since the only thing they cared about is gone.


I never said that your team hasn't been decent a number of times. I just simply say that

1. Historically you have not been anywhere close to the big 4 in performance

2. Finland does not have a history of coming FIRST-- your own stats prove this and I was suprised to find that Finland's only EVER hockey win of ANYTHING was when ZERO NHL players were there-- By definition a second rate tourney

3. All of this is HISTORY and shouldn't matter but it is interesting to a hockey fan

4. My assessment of your team is as it always was . .. a very good team that can win it all . .. good players and superlative goaltending can do that. My opinion is that they will get eliminated by the US but I would not be shocked if they won it all--- its just that winning it all is not consistent with Finland's hockey history



You can debate me all you want and on the merits of the current team you have strong arguments. But on the history of Finnish hockey, other than the 1995 WC what else have you guys EVER won

	08-09-2004 22:14									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Well, we have become one of the challengers in the 90s. We don't have history of winning a lot. Your point is? History is on the side of the US? Not if we look at WC games in the 90s. What history? World cup history? YEah, because we werent' so good until 90s came. Are you saying your analysis on the coming game is based on this? Not very solid.

My assessment of this game is base on THESE two teams. The US has faced some adversity and came through with a win against a very tough Russian team. Finland has similar internal dissent and barely defeated the weak sister Germany. I see momentu, favoring the US.

Talent wise I see the teams as very balanced. Either Kipper or Esche may make all the difference. Its just on the intangibles that I predict a US victory. A Finnish victory would not suprise me. If Finland won the tournament, I would not be suprised. But the history of the events show that THAT wuld be a truly HISTORIC moment in Finnish hockey

	08-09-2004 22:15									#223
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" All those silvers prove is that you guys are good at being SECOND best. canada never aspires to second and in fact when we lose our chance for first, the team often tumbles since the only thing they cared about is gone."

So you just go straight insulting. Very nice.

"1. Historically you have not been anywhere close to the big 4 in performance"

Yeah, so? welcome to the modern hockey.

"2. Finland does not have a history of coming FIRST-- your own stats prove this and I was suprised to find that Finland's only EVER hockey win of ANYTHING was when ZERO NHL players were there"

Yeah, and the silver games were extremely close ones, losing by one goal, and on OT too some of them.

" By definition a second rate tourney"

Yet you keep insisting these results are important.
4. My assessment of your team is as it always was . .. a very good team that can win it all . .. good players and superlative goaltending can do that."

I agree.

"My opinion is that they will get eliminated by the US but I would not be shocked if they won it all--- its just that winning it all is not consistent with Finland's hockey history"

Ok fair enough. I just don't see why history has so big play in this. All players in our team are professionals, just like in the US team. I say, history has very little to do with the coming results, and if US wins, I still claim it has nothing to do with history.

"But on the history of Finnish hockey, other than the 1995 WC what else have you guys EVER won"

Well, we have been able to consitently get into finals, which we have also lost in small marginal. Don't forget, we are not strangers winning huge teams, like Gretzky and the company in Olympics. We were supposed to be overrun by the Swedes also, but they were not able to dominate us 5 on 5 with their 'second best team in the tourney'. Their PP was strong and it almost got us though.

We haven't been in trouble 5 on 5.. only one goal allowed 5 on 5 to this date in this tourney. We have Stanley Cup winners in the team, the players are used to win. They have rarely played in WC games too.

US might win us, yes, I think we are underdogs, but I just don't see how history has anything to do with it.

	08-09-2004 22:16									#224
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ANd don't go over the top. We can't beat Canada if we get to the finals. That WOULD be surprising. It just won't happen.

	08-09-2004 22:24									#225
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And my point about knowing our team is, that I have seen many of these play in U20 teams live in here, I've seen them grow, I've seen them as juniors, I've seen them in Finnish Elite League a lot, I've seen every single guy in these teams years before they ever went to NHL. I wait for draft event, it's exciting to me, and I know a lot about our hockey in here.

We were plain bad in 80s. Only few good hockey players in here such as Jari Kurri and Esa Tikkanen, whose talent is little questionable, but he is multiple Stanley Cup winner anyway. Since then, hockey has been hugely popular, and Elite League has gotten a lot better to a pretty good standards, to fully professional, and after few weak years of juniors (big gap from the Saku Koivu year to Ruutu year), there are A LOT of juniors coming in right now. Just look last drafts, not a lot of individuals, but on good rounds they went. The junior situation is only challenged by US, Canada and Russia and that's been for few years now. And we are still coming up with even better juniors, and even with wider material. Everyone was surprised in the last U18 games, when we were supposed to lose the games in our home arena. I didn't understand this. I knew most junior players in there, and they were good, so the talks were weird. And their performance was very good. Couple of years more, and there will be few rookies in there who will become superstars. Few years more and our players exceed 40 player limit in there, with bigger percentage players being above average NHL players. They're coming on all fronts, and have been since the beginning of the 90s. I know local hockey. It only just started happening after Selänne, and it'll keep happening stronger than ever VERY soon.

	08-09-2004 22:56									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka So? we didn't have NHL players either? Not very deep the material in other countries then?

Thats funny.. Canada had probably 200-300 players in the NHL at that time. Pick a year, any year, and discount any country's best 200 players and see how you do.

Pekka, you have stated repeatedly how some good Finnish players play in European Leagues. None of the best Canadians do.

Finland won from that field and they deserve "credit" for that I guess, but to me its like medals won at the 1980 Moscow Olympics or in 1984 in Los Angeles. The medals are still medals but they are not quite the same when you know that a lot of the best are not there

	08-09-2004 23:02									#227
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I love his statement that Canada isn't very deep in talent.



We could field 3 teams in the same tourney and run a fair chance of placing 1-2-3. And every one of those teams would be (almost) entirely NHL players.

Canadians make up almost 60% of the NHL as currently constituted. Put that in your "depth" pipe and smoke it.

	08-09-2004 23:14									#228
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Oh, did I say Canada's talent is not deep? NO I didn't say that.
I love it how you take things out of contest and turn them upside down

Little arrogant there are we. I don't give a **** about your arrogant attitude, keep it going and you lose this tournament.

	08-09-2004 23:16									#229
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Overall pekka

I think we disagree very little. We both acknowledege a very good Finnish team ( although I accept you have superior knowledge of them)-- I actually think you overrate the Canadians.

My history comments came about since I had seen you talk about a "big 7". I acknowledge that there are 7 nations with a realistic shot of beating any of the other 7 in this tourney but I was curious as to the history.

When I looked at the history I immediately saw that there were really FOUR big hockey nations. I was also a little suprised to see how few medals Finland had won. In many of these tourneys, Finland had agreat record but then failed to capture the gold. I then commented on this-- it doesn't determine anything. ( canada got its first ever gymnastics gold at the ATHENS OLYMPICS-- history was made) For Finland to win this World CUP would be a historic hockey event-- It would be the first time ever they had won a contest among the best. I think they CAN do it . .. just on my view of the team, I don't think they WILL do it. Abusive coach, momentum, intangibles.

My two only solid reasons are

1. lacklustre effort against Germany-- thats a game you need to win with emphasis
2. failing to hold the lead against Sweden-- it wasn't just that they scored, it was the shooting gallery that was going on-- Sweden are a very good team and a tie is a good result but it was the way the tie happened that makes me doubt Finland's ability to win it all


I take very little solace in an undefeated record-- thats why I am truly worried about the Canada-Slovak game-- Part of me fears that they are too talented to go winless

Either way-- I look forward to the upcoming games ( and note I don't assume a Canadian win anywhere-- I have just run with your assumption you guys will get the US-- It could be US-Czech and Finland Slovakia after all


My comment about Canada's tumbling once out of contention for 1st was meant as no insult. from minor hockey on, most tournaments don't have a bronze medal game. The idea is to go for 1st. Every Canadian team is trying for 1st nowadays. At Nagano, when Canada lost to the Czechs after outplaying them badly only to be turned away by Hasek in that shootout, Canada was crushed. Players were directly quoted about not really caring about bronze. Then Finland beat Canada. Congratulations.

	08-09-2004 23:17									#230
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In Sega's NHL 2K5, Canada has no less than 5 "Dream Teams" to choose full of all-stars from all-time. All other countries have one at the most (Finland and Sweden are forced to share a team )

BTW, KH: I STRONGLY recommend you buy this game. It's just awesome, the best hockey game ever -- by far.

And it's only $19.99US, came out last week.

	08-09-2004 23:18									#231
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Yeah well, we care about winning every game we play, even if we play for bronze.

And the last post was to KH, who is twisting my words, not to you Flubber..

	08-09-2004 23:22									#232
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And I don't think I'm underestimating Canada. Everyone who thinks they are not the favourite bar none, they're fools. Anyone who thinks US team is almost just as unbeatable are even bigger fools, I just don't see the magic in there team at all. Last game was good, Tkachuk scoring 4 times. Where is the rest of the team? Where's the width in there?

We have one huge disadvantage, and thats' the time zones, and our team might be having bad jet lag, since they flew there .. today, and they have to play on friday already. With a huge time difference.

	08-09-2004 23:28									#233
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I mean, it's a long long flight, and 7 hour time difference. Talk about disadvantage right there. In the middle of crucial days.

	08-09-2004 23:51									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I mean, it's a long long flight, and 7 hour time difference. Talk about disadvantage right there. In the middle of crucial days.

You also get an additional day of rest if you play the US or two if you play the Slovaks.

You could have avoided the issue if you had joined the North American group-- Lets see -- let you replace the Slovaks-- now that would have been a fun rround robin to watch-- Hindsight is always perfect

	09-09-2004 01:18									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Yeah well, we care about winning every game we play, even if we play for bronze. And the last post was to KH, who is twisting my words, not to you Flubber..

My point is that you don't understand how much of the NHL Canadians make up and therefore how little world-class talent we have elsewhere.

Canadians are the backbone of professional hockey in North America. They have a more than fair representation among the top stars but ridiculously overrepresented among the next tier (solid players, but not superstars).

	09-09-2004 01:19									#236
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Plus I was tweaking you a bit.

	09-09-2004 02:01									#237
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It is amazing to me that the US pulled it together and defeated the Russians when it mattered. How big is the defection from the Finnish team?

	09-09-2004 05:19									#238
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4-0 for Canada so far, about half-done the game.

	09-09-2004 06:22									#239
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"My point is that you don't understand how much of the NHL Canadians make up and therefore how little world-class talent we have elsewhere."

Sure. Stupid foreigner I am. Try learning english. Then we can talk about the NHL. I never even claimed anything like what you are suggesting.


Flubber, what the hell are you talking about ADDITIONAL DAY? 7 hour time difference, 8 hour flight. ADDITIONAL DAY?!?!?!?!? That's nowhere near being fair.

Besides, Euro Group was toughter than North American. US was underperforming, Slovakia was not there at all, Russia was ok and Canada was good. Same can be said about our group, but hey, you make it sound like North American group is the Heavinly Hockey Angel Group.

pchang, it's impossible to say. They're not defecting, if I understood correctly, but of course they have thought about it, and that's all away from preparation, well mostly about Germany, I think they are over it already. But then again, it's impossible to say.

6-0 Canada.. looks like a beating.

	09-09-2004 07:12									#240
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Now things are interesting. Each team in the semifinals has a realistic chance of defeating the other.

Poor Slovakia...