17-01-2000 10:01									#31
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Re: M5

I kind of like the saving up movment idea. It seems like a good comprimise and wouldn't really neccesitate any design changes of my system.

As for the battles... The reinforcng for the second battle is exactly how the system would work. As for the time scale there I think that the 1 day isn't a bad idea. Its realistic and if we take into account the fact that the "combat time" of any army is something like 1% then it works out fine...

Grand Ideas and definitons:

In terms of the big idea in time scale. OK, if we look at how long campaings lasted and how many major battles were fought in that time we can figure out a rough number of fightable battles per given amount of time in the game. From there we can adjust sacles. This gives a good feel for stuff IMO. Also I like the idea f not telling the player what year it is in that case... IF we go that way, I vote that all operations then would be army level. since that is what we are simulating. Again this reinforces the TF concept. For example napoleonic armies averaged ~2000-100K troops. so we say the smallest meaingfull enagamnt has to have at least 10K troops and base TF's around that kind of idea... This would avoid small actions and just focus on the big battles of the eras (which are the ones that had the politcal ramificatons)

-HArli

[This message has been edited by Harlikwin (edited January 16, 2000).]

	17-01-2000 10:03									#32
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re:M5

mark personally i love RTS games

about saving up, there should not be any saving of action points, but there should be multi-turn actions...like you give a unit 5 orders to do...it might take it 2 full turns and part of the third turn to finish all of it's actions

	17-01-2000 10:09									#33
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k1

ok one thing i would like to be resolved is this...

for a full battle to take place, i fell that units have to be in the same square, like in the demo...supporting actions could happen but to fully engage in battle the TFs must be in the same square

is that agreed?

	17-01-2000 10:13									#34
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Re: K1

I agree to that. Thats all my model models
Reinforcment would take place between individual battles...

-Harli

	17-01-2000 10:16									#35
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Re: Re:k1

ok but to reinforce a TF you have to have the reinforcements move into that suare, and this will cost movement even if they are in the adjacent square

is that agreed?

	17-01-2000 10:22									#36
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M6

Harli: (for your posts of 12:01)

I'm glad you think saving a movement is OK. Another alternative is to do kind of like what is done in civ. Specifically if you have a phase and can't get completely to the next square, you could have a chance of getting to the neck square which is proportional to your movement left compared to the movement necessary to get to the neck square.

OK, if we can get the reinforcement to work right, I don't have any problems with the system.

Time with you on your last paragraph, I think getting the rough number of finable battles per amount of gametime right is the most important thing. I agree that were mainly only interested in the big battles. Although once the get the scale set right for the big battles, small battles could be just fought according to the same rules.

K1 discussion...
agree Completely. People can't fight unless there in the same square So a reinforcement actually has to be able to make it into the square to affect either the initial battle, or a subsequent one. I think if we just let history be our guide as to whether a potential supporting TF could reach the battle, or the next one, we will be in good shape.

	17-01-2000 10:23									#37
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Re: Re: Re: K1

Umm... Kinda
Way I see it if the unit has left over movment it would increase the chance of reinforcment. But it should still be possible. History is litterd with examples of fantastic achievents of movment in a short time. So I think it should be possible, if unlikely...

-Harli

	17-01-2000 10:25									#38
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k2

ok using the tick system here is something that can happen

in this battle there are three TFs

the roman 12th legion (4 units)

the carthaginian 11th levies (5 units)
the carthaginian 4th cav (4 units)

the romans 12th moves at a rate of 3 action points (ticks) per square

the carthaginian 11th moves at a rate of 3 ticks per square

the carthaginian 4th moves at a rate of 2 ticks per square

the roman 12th and the carth 11th moves into a square at the same time, and start a battle

2 ticks later the carth 4th into the square and starts, battle will ensue...but how do you think we should handle it?

i was thinking that since they are different TFs that the roman 12th should be in two overlapping battles, or it could just join the battle but extend the amount of ticks that the battle takes

what do you think?

	17-01-2000 10:27									#39
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Re: M6

Ok, yeah I agree that smaller stuff can be fought according to the same rules but I jsut wanted to point out that if we go with the big army model the amount of small battles fough will be historally low. I am ok with that if other people are, since some examples historically can be found (Palestine WWI was fought with pretty small forces while europe had big armies etc.)

-Harli

	17-01-2000 10:28									#40
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re:^4 k1

harli that is why there is 2 reserved ticks in a turn, few units could use those reserved ticks except under special circumstances like doing a forced march to reinforce a battle

	17-01-2000 10:33									#41
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M7

OK, now I'm going to stretch. Can we agree that there will be something on the order of 10 "action phases" per turn. Not much could be done in each individual action phase in terms of movement. But time with korn469 that allows for logical determination of whether a unit can move a bit and then do something else. Also, how about if we say that a battle takes one or two of these phases. Regrouping might also take one or two of these phases if there is the second battle coming. This would give us a timescale for saying roughly when a supporting TF outside the fight could get there. In the 10 action phases, has korn469 has laid out previously, you might move a few squares, or perform some other action. One advantage of doing the action phases thing, is that if one side gets to a square work combat is going to occur at the very end of the turn, it's clear no battle actually before the beginning of the next turn. On the other hand combat instead started the square in the turn would be able to fight three or four or five battles before the turn end.

	17-01-2000 10:35									#42
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Re K1^5

Ok that sounds fine, just so you know I really don't have tick thing down totally yet, and I'm not sure if we are gonna use it. Personally I am focusing on getting the battle resolution done first. While you guys work on the rest of it...

-Harli

	17-01-2000 10:36									#43
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re:2 M6

Mark i think that we should make it advantageous to have one 8 unit task force instead of two 4 unit task forces in terms of actually fighting a battle, until sophisticated command and control technology comes around but having one TF instead of two would limit your flexibility

	17-01-2000 10:38									#44
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M8

Also I propose support only starts when its determined a battle is going to Happen. This might be on tick 1, 5 or 10 of the turn. TFs that have already used all movement are genrally not able to support whereas those who don't use all movement could start moving in support whenever they get notification of a battle. Of course there's some flexibility around this as Harli points out, but this should be a general guideline IMO.

	17-01-2000 10:40									#45
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RE: M7
That sounds like a pretty good idea... Though in terms of scale we might say a few battles can be fought per big phase...

Harli

	17-01-2000 10:44									#46
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re: M7

mark

how about this

a skirmish takes 2 actions out of the 10

a probing action takes 3 ticks out of 10

a normal battle takes 4 ticks out of the 10

an all out assault takes 5 ticks out of the 10

	17-01-2000 10:44									#47
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Re M8
I agree with that... In principle anyway... How will it be implimented?

Harli

	17-01-2000 10:48									#48
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k3

ok here is how ticks work

a unit does the action on the first tick, then if for example the action was a 3 tick action, the next 2 ticks, the unit couldn't do anything else...also if a unit started an action after 9 ticks had passed and it was a 4 tick action the action would happen and the first 3 ticks of the next turn the unit couldn't do anything else

	17-01-2000 10:49									#49
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M9

Gentlemen... it sounds to me like we have a reasonable enough agreement on the issues we've been addressing. As Harli says, perhaps a division of labor would work out best on this.

I propose we break on the general issue of support and ticks. Korn469, would you be interested in working up a synthesis of what we've been talking about so far with some more "meat on the bones"? Harli, do you agree? That seems to be what I hear you saying. I think this issue is about is settled as it's going to get in a forum like this, and there were a lot of other issues to address. Once you come up with something firm, it could be presented and everyone could work you over er, I mean discuss the merits of your specific model .

	17-01-2000 10:49									#50
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Re: A couple of Korns Ideas

Ok, First of all 2 task forces in a square would be amalgameted into one and commanded by one general.
Why?
A: Its simple
B: It is pretty ralistic, one genarl has overall control, and since we are handling the manouver etc phases of battle it doesn't matter. Though there will be a control penalty for big forces... I take C^3 into account in my model...

Two, battles taking up a lot of time... I disagree with this, for one it's way too small scale. For two the current model doesn't do limited engagments (Though they can be modeledby commitment level) But my main point is that the scale your talking about is way way too small...

-Harli

	17-01-2000 10:51									#51
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M10

I have to break shortly for lunch. I'll pick up the conversation as soon as I return.

Harli... seeing as one of my issues hogged most of the limelight so far, do you want to raise one of yours?

See you shortly,

Mark

	17-01-2000 10:52									#52
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re: M8

mark only units that aren't involved with another action could support a unit...it is impossible with ticks for one unit to finish it's actions before another unit does

	17-01-2000 10:53									#53
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Re: M9

The division of labor sounds perfect to me... And once we got something firm we can discuss it... Besides I need to get going... Anywy I shall work out the Mil model some more and hopefully have a V.next.0 ready sometime this week.

-Harli

	17-01-2000 10:57									#54
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harlikwin

on your second point about if another unit enters the square and it joins the first TF

well what do you think should happen with the battle...should it increase the amount of ticks the battles is going to take or what?

	17-01-2000 10:58									#55
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Ok, thanks everybody.

K: I was talking about essentially having a Hold action. so my orders might be move to this square (3 tics) and then hold in support of friendly forces.