04-02-2000 10:55									#61
	Support Apolyton

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Mark Everson:

Your Military Applications tech does pretty much exactly the same thing as my Weapons basic techs did. Why exactly is that you want to define a whole new technology type? If it serves the same function as a basic technology, why do we need something different?
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I really like the generic weapons basic tech idea, because it makes things much simpler for the player.
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I thing the most attractive thing is that if there is a category for Infantry Weapons a militaristic player could leave it selected for favorable treatment for the entire game and just ride the transition automatically.
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The Application thing is an old idea and I'm not really committed to it, but it makes more sense than having a basic tech. You make it sound like someone could put everything into weapons techs and get loads of weapons automatically. They could research weapons to the exclusion of all else and conquer the planet. Everyone else would have to do the same thing or be crushed. That would result in the rest of the technology tree becoming entirely useless as military is the only thing that people can research and still live.

In my idea, everyone still has to research all the basic technologies before they get anything. The Applications technologies will be additional prerequisites for things. They are designed to measure social acceptance and need as well as pure knowledge.

I have to go now; I will continue later.

	05-02-2000 06:55									#62
	Tired of ads?

LGJ:

We do not need a fifth layer. Applications are items, improvements, and structures. The things like genetic engineering, automotive technology, and crop rotation would be Level 3 technologies. Robotics and Cybernetics would also be good for lLevel 3 technologies, while applications would be things like Robotic Tanks.

Interface:

There ahould be different options to this. The default model would, in early time periods, have your people develop Level 1 and Level 2 technologies avdance automatically based on social and economic conditions. Level 3 techs are the ones that can be supported by your government, as the player spends RP's to advance practical knowledge.

As you get closer to the modern era, your government gains the ability to influence the upper layers of tech growth. In the modern era, you can and must support reaearch for all levels of technology.

Another option for interface would be to allow the player to influence all levels of the tech tree throughout history. Some players would want that.

On the other extreme, there should be the option to make tech growth completely independent of player control. This historically accurate model would force the player to take and use tech progress as it comes bu means beyond the player's control. This would be an interesting possibility.

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Krenske:
Of course if we use just the following as the base techs.
1. Production Technologies
2. Transportation, Communications, and Commerce
3. Arts and Popular Arts
4. Hard Sciences
5. Soft/Social Sciences
6. Government, Law, and Management
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I don't like this at all. These are not really technologies. Also, if this was Level 1 then we would have to compress too many types of techs into Level 2 and the structure of the system would be confused and weakened. The Level 1 techs should be academic fields of study like Physics.
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Do you realise the 4 levels allows sub branches of broad scientific areas to be placed in the second level. (Gets rid of a lot of the physics debate.)
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Yes, I realise this. I specifically mentioned it in my post.
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EG. Physics works as a basic tech when it reaches 15% we get to study mechanics, when we hit 30% we get to study electro magnetics, at 45% we can move on to atomic research, at 60% we may move on to cosmological research etc.
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I was planning something like that. But Mechanics would cone a lot earlier, possibly even 1%. It was the very first thing about Physics to be studied.

Naming:

I would prefer the following mane system:
Level 1: Basic Technologies
Level 2: General Technologies (actually this doesn't sound exactly right, does anyone heve another idea?)
Level 3: Applied Technologies
Level 4: Applications

I will continue to use the Level description until this is settled.

Example:

The previous level technology is always a vital tech. Percentages are not the required level; they are the level that makes acquisition easier and more likely. Other vital techs are listed, as well as helper techs, which have no percentage.

Level 1 Tech: Physics

Level 2 Techs:

Mechanics: Physics 1%

Magnetism: Physics 20%

Optics: Physics 30%, Geometry

Electromagnetic Theory: Physics 50%

Atomic Physics: Physics 70%

I don't yet have a list of all of teh Level 3 technologies, but they would be things like Atomic Fission, Computers, Electronics, or Fiber Optics. Note that most of these are multidisciplinary; they are also a part of other Level 1 hierarchies. So there will not be a huge number of unique techs in every Level 1 technology. I think it is reasonable to have a somewhat large number of Level 3 technologies because they will be well organised and easy to deal with.

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Mark Everson:
So, just to make sure I've got it... I take it that Every direct practical profession is in level 3, and level 4 is just single applications themselves? So long as there is a single level at which the player can point and say 'gimme more of That' I think the players will like it and the AI will be able to handle it. Please try really hard to have something more like 50 techs at level 3 rather than 200!
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That is the idea; with the default interface players would be able to emulate Prince Henry and put a lot of effort into developing specific things like Navigation. And 100 or so Level 3 techs for every time period is reasonable. We can just eliminate things like Woodworking when they reach 100%. At that point we call the tech "Mastered" and the player no longer deals with it.

	05-02-2000 10:10									#63
	Put an end to popups!

I would prefer the following mane system:
Level 1: Basic Technologies
Level 2: General Technologies (actually this doesn't sound exactly right, does anyone heve another idea?)
Level 3: Applied Technologies
Level 4: Applications
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How about level 2 be Theoretical Technologies as apposed to applied technolgies?

That is the idea; with the default interface players would be able to emulate Prince Henry and put a lot of effort into developing specific things like Navigation. And 100 or so Level 3 techs for every time period is reasonable. We can just eliminate things like Woodworking when they reach 100%. At that point we call the tech "Mastered" and the player no longer deals with it.
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I think that might be okay for things like woodworking, but otherwise it somethings might never be mastered. I mean even today we haven't even mastered mechanics.

	05-02-2000 23:35									#64
	Got spare money?

Name: Theoretical sounds better than General, but I still think there is a better name out there . . .

Website:
I noticed that the Clash web page still has the old technology model. We should probably let people know that we are working on somethng new.

Tree Revision: I will start working on the multilayered tree for a new post. Unless something else comes up that needs to be included, it should be done by next weekend.

Next Technology Thread
[This message has been edited by Richard Bruns (edited February 27, 2000).]