03-09-2004 18:35									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy No. Socially left or right is a misnomer,

No it isn't.

	03-09-2004 18:36									#32
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Economically: centrist to right
Politically: right
Attitude to religin cenrist to right


Attitude to our parlament: all of them are ****

	03-09-2004 19:36									#33
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Clinging onto the far end of left with my fingernails

	03-09-2004 20:15									#34
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quote: it's not that simple. Historically, left denotes a more progressive outlook on things, be it economically or socially.

Because the libertarian issues were situationally linked toward to leftist economic policy. Now that is no longer the case, if you will, another dimension has been created. For example, a Stalinist would be very left wing economically, but very totalitarian, which some might consider right wing.

quote: Bullshit

Care to explain?

quote: The poll is not about what people are, but about what people think they are

Hardly, for comparison, peoples views are relative to the other, but since we aren't talking about economics, we must include social issues, hence left, right + liberal or totalitarian. Someone could claim to be a centrist or a liberal but in fact, has faschist elements.

Of course it's easier to abandon this whole discussion and say that someone isn't an "ist" or an "ism" but has instead views that are reflective of oneself, in the artistic sense. That won't make the utilitarians very happy though .

quote: No it isn't.

Yes it is. Fiscal policy is left or right. Its silly to say that liberty is on the left and totalitarianism is on the right, when they aren't necessarily related to economics. You can have libertarian communism ("proper" anarchism), and libertarian capitalism (right-wing liberals). Totalitarian communism bears most resemblance to Stalinism.

You could independentally call them left or right but that'll just cause confusion.

The best example of what I'm saying is the thing on politicalcompass.org.

	03-09-2004 20:17									#35
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quote: Care to explain?

No, not really.

Seriously, most people don't think in terms of 'liberty vs. totality'. They think about different aspects of life, and have different opinions in them.

	03-09-2004 20:19									#36
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Which is what I said above... you can't categorise it in two dimensions, let alone one of left and right.

Doing it two-dimensionally is better for finding out where people are relative to others, obviously the more dimensions you include the better (i can think of about four or five off the top of my head), but everyone has different priorities, so if you wanted to create a true picture, you'd have to relate it to the individual... hence "conceptual" art.

	03-09-2004 20:21									#37
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And why in the name of sweet merciful lucipher did you change your sig?

	03-09-2004 20:23									#38
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I think I'm evolving into a social democrat.

Last edited by Gangerolf on 03-09-2004 at 20:29

	03-09-2004 20:39									#39
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Left is good. Right is evil. So even though some people say that you can have a totalitarian left. It's not really true. Totalitarian is right more than that libertarian silliness.

	03-09-2004 20:40									#40
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quote: Which is what I said above... you can't categorise it in two dimensions, let alone one of left and right

Insead you placed a single one "liberty vs. totality" or whatever.

	03-09-2004 20:45									#41
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Sure you can have a totalitarian left. Everyone works for the state, no private enterprise, no private property, and socially, no free speech, no freedom of association, everyone is reduced to a cog in a machine. There is a tenuous link between fiscal and social policy, and that link makes leftist economic policy marginally more compatible with totalitarianism than capitalism. I say it is a tenuous link because fiscal policy cannot on its own impede much upon freedom of expression and association, except via taxation.

	03-09-2004 20:48									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Sure you can have a totalitarian left. Everyone works for the state, no private enterprise, no private property, and socially, no free speech, no freedom of association, everyone is reduced to a cog in a machine. There is a tenuous link between fiscal and social policy, and that link makes leftist economic policy marginally more compatible with totalitarianism than capitalism. I say it is a tenuous link because fiscal policy cannot on its own impede much upon freedom of expression and association, except via taxation.

You've just desribed an oppresive system. Right wing.

	03-09-2004 20:49									#43
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That describes Stalinism. Pretty unpleasant all things considered. The bureaucracy out of control. We have to learn these lessons the next time the revolution comes

	03-09-2004 20:51									#44
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quote: Insead you placed a single one "liberty vs. totality" or whatever.

Its another dimension. You still have left+right as an economic dimension, but you've added liberty+totality as another.

This is what I mean... again you'll see it politics compass. On the one-dimensional left-right, I am on the right, Stalin is on the left, but according to this, I am furthermore libertarian, Stalin would be totalitarian. I could do more, but I'm not so good at drawing cubes.

	03-09-2004 20:51									#45
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I'm fiscally left wing but very socially liberal - people should be able to ****, marry, worship, take anything they want as long as it's consenting.

	03-09-2004 20:54									#46
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Is a bleet considered consent?

	03-09-2004 20:54									#47
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quote: You've just desribed an oppresive system. Right wing.

And yet fiscally, high taxes, the state owns all, private property is eliminated. As left is defined as such, it is a left system. Left is not defined in any other way, thus you revert to the graph above.

	03-09-2004 20:55									#48
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quote: I'm fiscally left wing but very socially liberal - people should be able to ****, marry, worship, take anything they want as long as it's consenting.

Thus you would be left wing, and liberal (at least, as far as a comparison to others are concerned)

	03-09-2004 20:58									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Is a bleet considered consent?

One bleat for yes, two for no, three for stick it in my... er... never mind.

	03-09-2004 21:00									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy And yet fiscally, high taxes, the state owns all, private property is eliminated. As left is defined as such, it is a left system. Left is not defined in any other way, thus you revert to the graph above.

High taxes don't make a left wing system. It depends on what those taxes are spent on. I could give a huge list of right wing govts with extremely high taxes. A left wing govt opperates in the interest of the people. All of them, not just a select group.

	03-09-2004 21:02									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Thus you would be left wing, and liberal (at least, as far as a comparison to others are concerned)

liberal and left wing are mutually exclusive even if you have those who aren't sure which one they are.

	03-09-2004 21:03									#52
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quote: High taxes don't make a left wing system. It depends on what those taxes are spent on. I could give a huge list of right wing govts with extremely high taxes. A left wing govt opperates in the interest of the people. All of them, not just a select group.

I'm sorry but the interests of the people? (I'm going to enjoy this) care to elaborate?

Consider left to have socialist elements accordingly, so what would make them right wing governments? Totality per chance? If so, you're not addressing my argument, you're just going in circles for your own reiterated points, which I believe have been satisfactorily refuted.

	03-09-2004 21:04									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious High taxes don't make a left wing system. It depends on what those taxes are spent on. I could give a huge list of right wing govts with extremely high taxes. A left wing govt opperates in the interest of the people. All of them, not just a select group.

If you've dissolved private property, having everything owned by the state, you have a left wing system, regardless of whether or not it is totalitarian or libertarian. Are you arguing that Stalin, a communist, was right wing? Or that the oppressive communist Chinese regimes were right wing?

	03-09-2004 21:04									#54
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quote: liberal and left wing are mutually exclusive even if you have those who aren't sure which one they are.

Ok let me put this another way. I'm a right-wing liberal. That means I'm a libertarian, a pacifist etc. I also consider a free market a good idea, with low taxes and minimal, essentialist public spending. Would you consider me left-wing or right-wing?

	03-09-2004 21:06									#55
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fiscal moderate right, socially liberal.

	03-09-2004 21:08									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Consider left to have socialist elements accordingly, so what would make them right wing governments? Totality per chance? If so, you're not addressing my argument, you're just going in circles for your own reiterated points, which I believe have been satisfactorily refuted.

You aren't making any argument. You are just making subjective generalized assumptions. Like collectivization is right wing.

You can't have socialist elements in a right wing govt. You either have a system where all people are treated equally and they are not oppressed by the govt, or you have a system where some people are given special priviledges and or the govt oppresses people. The first is left, the second is right.

	03-09-2004 21:10									#58
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I am socially liberal and financially left wing. Nothing exlusive about the two unless you take them to ridiculous extremes.

People should be allowed to do whatever they want socially/sexually/religiously etc, as long as they don't harm/infringe on the freedoms of other people and there should be taxation based welfare including free education and healthcare for all and assistance for living costs for people unable to work as well as police, a fair court system, defence etc. Free market is ok as long as you prevent exploitation and monopolies. Basically in the UK we are fairly close to that, but a bit too socially restrictive.

Actually, free education was one of the things in Marx's Communist Manifesto and most people in the western world take that for granted these days.

	03-09-2004 21:11									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue If you've dissolved private property, having everything owned by the state, you have a left wing system, regardless of whether or not it is totalitarian or libertarian. Are you arguing that Stalin, a communist, was right wing? Or that the oppressive communist Chinese regimes were right wing?

Stalin only claimed to be left wing. No one can prevent people from claiming anything. The fact is, that he was one of the most right wing in history.

	03-09-2004 21:14									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Ok let me put this another way. I'm a right-wing liberal. That means I'm a libertarian, a pacifist etc. I also consider a free market a good idea, with low taxes and minimal, essentialist public spending. Would you consider me left-wing or right-wing?

You are a classical liberal which really doesn't fit into the present context. You are right wing because you support a system of haves and have nots. You probably believe that your right to your property is more important than others right to life, and other silliness.