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VetLegion
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Chilean President, did Allende use violence against his political opponents? Do we have any reason to think that Allende, had Pinochet not seized power, would have used force to remain in power?
Since there was a huge strike in August, I am guessing that Allende would have either been forced to resign then or at best held out for his first term, but in no way gained another?
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Chilean President™
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Viña del Mar, CHILE
Feb 2001
time: 00:23
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quote:
Chilean President, did Allende use violence against his political opponents? Do we have any reason to think that Allende, had Pinochet not seized power, would have used force to remain in power? |
Is difficult to answer this questions. There were groups that supported Allende that were extremely violent. Although they weren't controlled by Allende himself, but by the Socialist and Communist parties.
On the other hand there was a personal secret service for the president called GAP that did participate in some violent clashes against right wing groups and civilians.
Anyway, Allende himself didn't supported violence and there are several people that confirms that he got very upset when he heard news about this kind of things.
But I'm absolutely sure he wouldn't used the force to remain in power, but I'm also sure that some extremists left wing groups would have done something to avoid the change of administration if it was elected a right-winger (very possible) or a moderate left winger in 1975 presidencial elections.
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Since there was a huge strike in August, I am guessing that Allende would have either been forced to resign then or at best held out for his first term, but in no way gained another? |
Inmediate re election isn't allowed by Chilean Constitution so that wasn't possible. In regard of a resignation, that was only a decision that President Allende could have taken, but he didn't. In fact the Congress requested his resignation after several unconstitutional (sp?) measures the administration ordered, but it was only a request (voted and supported by 84% or so, of both Chambers) 'cause the Chilean Constitution doesn't contemplate a president remotion by the Congress.
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VetLegion
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Wow this was fast! Thanks!
Also, I read that
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In March 1973, the Unidad Popular won about 44 percent of the vote in congressional elections compared to some 36 percent in 1970. It was said to be the largest increase an incumbent party had ever received in Chile after being in power more than two years. The opposition parties had publicly expressed their optimism about capturing two-thirds of the congressional seats and thus being able to impeach Allende. Now they faced three more years under him, with the prospect of being unable, despite their best and most underhanded efforts, to prevent his popularity from increasing even further. |
I can't really understand this. I gather that economy was deteriorating under Allende, so how did, two years into his mandate, his party (coalition) actually gain an increase in the number of seats in congress?
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VetLegion
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quote:
Originally posted by Chilean President
Is difficult to answer this questions. There were groups that supported Allende that were extremely violent. Although they weren't controlled by Allende himself, but by the Socialist and Communist parties. |
Ok. Allende was of Socialist Party. I guess that as its head, he had significant influence on it, even on the violence. He can't be clean.
Do you know of any estimates about how many people died in political violence up to the coup of 11 September 1973., on both sides? I'm trying to compare it to the number of dead under Punochet's regime, which I have found to be estimated at about 3000.
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Chilean President™
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Viña del Mar, CHILE
Feb 2001
time: 00:23
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Do you know of any estimates about how many people died in political violence up to the coup of 11 September 1973., on both sides? I'm trying to compare it to the number of dead under Punochet's regime, which I have found to be estimated at about 3000. |
That can't be comparable. I have no estimated but believe me it wasn't a number even close to those 3000. Although for those years it as was a big number, 'cause historically we never had such a political turmoil.
Anyway, it can't be something to compare.
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Ok. Allende was of Socialist Party. I guess that as its head, he had significant influence on it, even on the violence. He can't be clean. |
Perhaps he's not that clean, but to be honest the heads of the Socialist and Communist parties were the ones to blame. I really dislike those guys. Now they appear in Europe and other countries looking like victims but believe me, they aren't. Altamirano, the chairman of the Socialist party is guilty of several violent actions across Chile that ended with murderers. Plus I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't hesistate (sp?) to even overthrow Allende if he got a bit soft in regard of the opposition requests.
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I can't really understand this. I gather that economy was deteriorating under Allende, so how did, two years into his mandate, his party (coalition) actually gain an increase in the number of seats in congress? |
For that election two new parties were added to the UP coalition, one of them a catholic side, that brought them a bit more votes. But in any case, in Chile is not too often to punish the guy in power by voting for the opposition in lower level elections. I mean, most of the time one thing doesn't lead to another. For example nowadays President Lagos (socialist, Concertacion Coalition) have a solid 60%+ support, but in the last mayors elections the opposition gain a 15% in support winning even in bigger cities like Santiago, Viña del Mar and Concepción, so as you can see it doesn't matter what's going up "upstairs", things "downstairs" have their own way of motion.
On the other hand while UP won 44% the Democracia Cristiana (center left) + Partido Nacional (right) coalition did won the 56% of the vote, that's a lot for a opposition force.
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VetLegion
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Anyway, it can't be something to compare. |
OK.
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For that election two new parties were added to the UP coalition, one of them a catholic side, that brought them a bit more votes. But in any case, in Chile is not too often to punish the guy in power by voting for the opposition in lower level elections. |
I understand. That means that the results of those elections can't be seen as some sort of proof that Allende still had popular support?
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VetLegion
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Some questions about the last year of Allende's government.
Allende called in Army to help him suppress the chaos, right? Did troops actually move in and made contact with crowds anywhere? Did Allende attempt censorship of media or jailing of political opponents?
Was all Allende's reforms ideological, did he attempt to change failed reforms or work compromises?
Btw., I've read about USA involvement in the affair and I must say it was very harmful to Chile of the day.
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VetLegion
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I was trying to find how did Allende manage to push through his reforms despite not having control of the Congress. Is this how?:
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Also during 1971-72, the government dusted off emergency legislation from the 1932 Socialist Republic to allow it to expropriate industries without congressional approval. It turned many factories over to management by the workers and the state. |
OK, so we have some legislation passed (like copper nationalization), some very old legislation invoked to make other reforms possible, and we certainly have unconstitutional acts by Allende.
Which were dominating? During his rule, how much exactly did he break the constitution?
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VetLegion
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Nationalizations of big foreign companies are not that problematic, as they had wide support across the political spectrum.
Nationalizations of smaller and domestic companies had a bigger impact on economic recession. Of course, American financial embargo didn't help either.
Chilean President,
Allende never used secret police in the way Pinochet did, right? To kill opponents? It was all paramilitaries and extremist fringe groups?
Also, I already mentioned, but please don't forget to reply to this: did he attempt to censor the media, and did he attempt to crack down on civil liberties?
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Chilean President™
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Viña del Mar, CHILE
Feb 2001
time: 00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
I understand. That means that the results of those elections can't be seen as some sort of proof that Allende still had popular support? |
Exactly. For instance, you know that Allende was elected with 36% of the votes, meanwhile in the town of Lota he got the biggest %, near 60%, but on 1973 that small town mobilized to ask for his resignation. In a 50,000 people town a mobilization of 35,000 is something that shocks.
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Allende called in Army to help him suppress the chaos, right? Did troops actually move in and made contact with crowds anywhere? |
Yes there were some clashes between the army and the protesters. While it wasn't a bloodbath or anything like that, there were some death people. Again, there weren't so much, but for a historically non-political turmoiled country it was something really bad.
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Did Allende attempt censorship of media or jailing of political opponents?
(...) did he attempt to censor the media, and did he attempt to crack down on civil liberties? |
Saddly, yes. Several news medias were closed, some of them really important, like Canal 9 TV and El Mercurio newspaper, which was closed by a couple of days, until the Supreme Court declared that the government decision was unconstitutional. But government censorship was something of everyday. I have some newspapers of those years and there are some blank sections with a editor note that says "This news story was censored by the Government's Media Watch Council".
In regard of political opponents, some of them were detained but for short periods of time. Anyway the one that were detained were only mid level opposition members, the leaders of the opposition coalition weren't detained.
After a half a million protest in front of La Moneda palace (the crowd shouted (sp?) "Please Mr. President, resign!"), the government prohibited any public protest against the government in the nearby sector of the Palace. That wasn't too effective 'cause on 1973 a nearly 2 million march walk through La Moneda asking him again to step down. I don't recall the use of force by Carabineros in those manifestations, so the prohibition was kind of symbolic.
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Was all Allende's reforms ideological, did he attempt to change failed reforms or work compromises? |
Mostly was ideological. Like the reform of the economic policies that didn't allowed private industry. This was a main issue that the opposition (and even some UP moderate members) fought. Chile historically is a capitalist country, lots of big Chilean corporation and industries faced their end, and I'm not only talking of the big ones (nation wide) but several local based.
On 1971, Allende promissed to not keep these kind of reforms, but on 1973 he brough them back again.
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I was trying to find how did Allende manage to push through his reforms despite not having control of the Congress. Is this how?:
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Also during 1971-72, the government dusted off emergency legislation from the 1932 Socialist Republic to allow it to expropriate industries without congressional approval. It turned many factories over to management by the workers and the state. |
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Yes.
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Which were dominating? During his rule, how much exactly did he break the constitution? |
Mostly old legislation, which is legal. Not a very good way of doing things, but legal. 
But there were also some unconsitutional measures, not too many, but when a President do that the public opinion just judge him and find him guilty in a second. I recall the Education Reform program as one of the biggest unconstitutional measures that was only stopped by the Supreme Court decision. This measure prohibited by decree the private schools and universities in the country (while private universities weren't so popular in those years, private school were). Also the program homogenizate the teaching in the schools and didn't allowed any kind of religious teaching (Catholic and Jews schools protested).
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Nationalizations of big foreign companies are not that problematic, as they had wide support across the political spectrum. |
Exactly. While the nationalization of the cooper industries was something that started with the Frei senior administration, they were mostly carried on by Allende. Which no one can understand is why the government decided to expropriate electronic corporations (which were Chilean capitals, and after the expropirate they were declared on bankruptcy) and small local business.
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Allende never used secret police in the way Pinochet did, right? To kill opponents? It was all paramilitaries and extremist fringe groups? |
Mostly extremists groups that, while declared publicly to support Allende, they were actually trying to overthrow the government to put a "less moderate one"... they considered Allende as a moderate. While Allende declared that he wanted a democratic revolution, a revolution in peace, those groups wanted to use violents attack to emulate Cuba. 
There wasn't a secret police like in the Pinochet administration. The GAP group (Allende's security service) did some really stupid things from time to time, but it wasn't very usual and I suposse not by the President orders.
The extremist groups worked on they own, not by following a chain of command, or something like that.
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11-10-2004 08:30
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