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F_Smith
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Austin, Tx 78728
May 1999
time: 05:13
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Now it's up again. Supposedly for good.
They were supposedly upgrading the server for better thruput.
Which brings up a good general question -- how long does it take the applet to load on ya'lls machines?
I can change the order things load in, to speed it up, if anyone is experience serious delay.
On my machine it comes up in about 10 seconds, altho I have a Cable modem and pretty serious machine.
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F_Smith
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Austin, Tx 78728
May 1999
time: 05:13
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Hi, Axi:
I am sorry about that. It seems to be an isolated case on your environment. If you don't mind, for now, I'd like to solve your specific problem by creating an application for you to download, instead of running the applet. That'll let you save, guaranteed.
But about the functionality of the tool itself -- is it okay? Terrible? Comments? Suggestions?
What can I add to make it useful?
We need this to replace the spreadsheets, so we can develop real models and get debugged gamecode at the same time.
What do I need to do to get us there?
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axi
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Athens Greece
Sep 1999
time: 07:13
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Wow, now we have forests, mountains, villages, a lake and omigod! those cute little castles! 
Btw, where did you get this? quote:
You can't control more provinces than the current tech level.
Your Tech level is 1,
and you have 1 provinces
Raise the Tech level first.
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Oh and I love the NotReadyYet messages! 
Seriously now:
1) The Build/Edit base EG dialog is a little screwed up. It won't let you select the 2nd base EG you create to assign it it's attributes.
2)The selection mechanism on the map (the one that makes them pink) is either too slow or it is screwed up; can 2 or more squares be selected at the same time?
3)Your program is several times larger or your server is several times slower now. It takes me a couple of minutes to load.
4) How about the right click menu on the mapsquares? Will we be able to set the number of sites for food and resources in the future?
5) Don't you think it's just tedious to fill the map with the same EGs all over the place? What will happen in the beginning of a game, when the "world'" is created? What I mean is, don't we need a random generator for that stuff? (A thing that you could instruct: gimme a world with these religions, these civs, these cultures, classes, etc...)
6) When will we be able to insert, test and modify our formulas for the various attributes we provide for our EGs?
I would make more worhthwhile comments, but I am not very familiar with the game object model; Rodrigo is really your man.
------------------
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
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F_Smith
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Austin, Tx 78728
May 1999
time: 05:13
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Hi, Axi:
Forgive the silly little line drawings. It's just the best I can do. They're just 'placeholders', for now, I'm simply drawing those pixel by pixel in the game code, creating a memoryImage (very flexible, but very inefficient). Most everything I've done for displaying the map will be different for the final game, in fact. I just cut some corners.
The number I plucked out of thin air, but in one of the threads (tech discussion, perhaps?) mentioned that the number of Provinces would be dependent on a tech level. So, for the moment, just to test the model, I've limited each 'civ' to one province. It can be easily expanded -- I'll set a place for you to customize a civ's tech level for that.
1) I'll look into it -- it works okay on my machine, oddly enough.
2) Same thing. I have an idea of what to do now, I'll post about it later tonight.
3) Dang it. As I said, they 'upgraded' the servers. It shouldn't be any longer to load. I can do something about the load time, tho -- it takes about 15 seconds on my machine (but I have a 2 meg/sec cable modem and 512 meg ram).
4) Absolutely. I will add that in tonight, in fact.
5) This is not how a game will begin. That will be either generated randomly, or you load a 'scenario' file. This is an early version of what will actually be a 'scenario' editor. That's also why I was hoping ya'll could save/load game info in this editor -- so you didn't have to re-create the entire world you want to test every time.
6) I'll add the Gui parts to do that tonight. The code already has that (empty) data in it.
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:13
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Hi F_Smith:
I got to check it out without fate's evil hand interfering! You've made a lot of progress, very cool.
It took about 90 seconds to load with a cable modem and I E. 5.0. I had the same problem as Axi, I couldn't actually copy the stuff in the save file info box. Here's my requested feature list 
1) Please start the ObjectBuilder with a default set of information covering at least half the map with a few civs, several cultures, a few provinces, etc. already built. It is an extreme pain to need to go in and create a whole bunch of dummy names for things when you just want to see in general what is going on and what is implemented. Perhaps you could leave the bottom half of the map unfilled so people could do things starting from scratch if that's what they wanted.
2) As Axi said, getting the actual values for the government and social models in there, and being able to watch how they evolve with time, is key. But please start it with a default set of values. Most of the people who check it out will not want to enter in 25 numbers by hand just to see what the thing does.
3) The number of provinces you can control stably in the best guess we're working with now depends on tech level (and infrastructure like roads). But even at the lowest level of technology and zip infrastructure you could probably control five provinces (if they are all close together) with no trouble. So I suggest at least opening it up so that a default civ can have five provinces or so.
4) Have you put any thought into how you're going to show the evolution of the values that are behind culture and government? If you have a simple graphing program available, it would be excellent to select a few characteristics and then be able to watch them evolving on a strip chart as the turns go by. You know, that's for us guys who like to do things on spreadsheets .
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F_Smith
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Austin, Tx 78728
May 1999
time: 05:13
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Mark and Axi:
One possible spot of hope--did you try using Control+c to copy (and Control+v to paste) the the text in the box? Make sure the text is highlighted, too.
I was assuming that approach. I tend to use it without thinking.
Just one possibility.
And regarding download time, I'm not sure how much we can do about that, short of spending money for a faster server. I'm just using my default webspace at my ISP for testing, so for now that'll have to do. Even connected straight thru to them, I've noticed that it can take a few seconds for a new dialog box to pop up the first time, while it downloads the Gui classes. Then every other time it comes up very quickly, since it's been cached.
Mark:
1) Okay. I'm a good ways done. I changed the thing to load a scenario file from the server on loading. Tomorrow night I'll actually flesh out those scenarios some (right now they mostly load blank worlds -- altho at least the 6000bc one has a little data in it).
2) Once I finish #1, then I'll do the Gui's for altering model values. The gamedata already has a place to store the values, it's just a matter of writing up a few more GUI panels. This weekend, it should be done.
3) I'll change the province situation after that. Might fit into this weekend.
4) I can easily save values along a timeline. I probably could graph the data, too. I've actually got a widget I built for work that does some nice charting.
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F_Smith
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Austin, Tx 78728
May 1999
time: 05:13
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Axi:
1) Shall do.
2) Agreed, altho the other options are not necessarily preferable right now. The ways around applet secutity restrictions are
a) to use a servlet and run my own webserver from my machine 24/7. We absolutely will do this eventually, for multiplayer, but hopefully we'll be able to find a better machine to host the servlet.
b) to 'sign' the applet. Theoretically this is a good option, but I'll have to look into how to do it.
c) to create a downloadable application, to allow users to save to their local machines.
I'm afraid there just isn't much other choice.
3) Excellent, substantive question. The datamodel I'm working with now has 'TendencyValues' and 'Attributes' as collections of what are called 'key-value' pairs. That's one thing I need to add to the Gui -- the ability to define those key-value pairs. And the idea is that while those values are a component of people's behavior, it will be able to be changed from EG to EG, so that not all members of a given 'culture' have to have the same tendencies or attributes. They can have the same ones, but they don't have to. Plus, a given group of people in a give square might have cause to change their attributes or tendencies independent of the larger 'culture'.
4) I think that would be a good addition, later. And actually, I've never before seen a scenario editor with a random map feature (altho it would have been nice to have had one). For now, I'm trying to keep the map small and sweet, so we can have controlled tests.
* * *
Mark:
I had considered a .jar, altho it would make it harder to control start-up time for the app, since it has to download the whole .jar before you can launch. But if people already are set up for Java2 .jars, that would save me a lot of trouble making up Gui components . . . and the collections stuff is better, too, altho a bit slower to access, on average. But that's a thought. Maybe after this weekend.
Oh, and I don't mind using the 'diamond' shaped tiles, later. For now, tho, I'm taking a simple (altho slow and memory intensive) shortcut of simply making each mapsquare a 'component' and adding it to a panel with 'gridLayout'. So I don't have to mess with a bunch of custom display code, and I get the right-click menus and such.
But later I can change that.
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F_Smith
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Austin, Tx 78728
May 1999
time: 05:13
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Mark:
That's a great idea for getting around this slow server, actually. I'll do that tonight.
Since Visual Cafe makes it so easy to put out a .jar file, there's no reason not to.
It really makes me mad, tho -- the thing was loading pretty fast last week, before they 'upgraded' their servers.
Some upgrade . . .
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F_Smith
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Austin, Tx 78728
May 1999
time: 05:13
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Axi:
1) Sorry, just testing out something different. That's how I explore possibilities -- I don't ask you what size you want the screen, I show you a few different options and get your feedback. That way there's no guessing -- it's clear you *don't* like fullscreen!!!
I'll change that. I was going to try a 'frame' and see what that looks like, too. It would give me menus to use, for one thing, which would allow me to move those on-screen buttons to menus and free up some screen space.
2) Shall do.
3) A fix for the download time prob is going to be forthcoming. Please just bear with me, for now.
Right now, I'm beefing up the XML loader, so I can load all the scenario info. It's taking a bit of debugging, so it should be another night before I can add the object details Gui panels (Religion, Culture, etc).
Thanks for keeping up with this, tho . . .
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F_Smith
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Austin, Tx 78728
May 1999
time: 05:13
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Mark:
So far, the '6000bc' one has the most saved data. Egypt and Greece have a little.
The frame is indeed tied to the Browser, I believe that changing to another page in the browser will cancel the loading of that applet. I wasn't sure if I should make the browser frame the 'parent' frame of the game frame, because this would mean that closing the game frame would close the browser (the way it was before now). Should I go back to that?
I just finished debugging the XML loader last night, and making the cosmetic changes. I kinda like the frame approach, with the pull-down menus. More room for on-screen info. I think I'm going to stick with it, if there are no objections.
Tonight I'll flesh out a few more scenarios and add the ability to define the objects in depth.
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F_Smith
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Austin, Tx 78728
May 1999
time: 05:13
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There's now a zip file with all the source code available from the page.
There's also a downloadable zip file for running the app from your machine.
It works on my machine, but as before, there might be some differences from platform to platform that only ya'll can tell me about.
P.S. -- the 'scenario' files have to be underneath whatever directory the class files are in, in a "/scenario" directory. The application will read any .scn files in that directory and put those on the frame to be loaded.
The 'applet' still uses hard-coded file names for those buttons.
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F_Smith
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Austin, Tx 78728
May 1999
time: 05:13
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*Note*
What is up now is not a finished release -- it is there for debugging purposes only.
I am aware not all of the Ruler Govt Preferences and Cultural Attributes will be %'s. I'll finish that. And no, the 'Ruler' data does not yet save, and the Cultural Attributes can not be stored.
Another night or two.
But then we'll be able to begin to 'play' a stripped-down 'govt' game, where you try and manipulate the govt via the ruler (with -- or in spite of -- the will of the people!!!). Then we can begin to hammer out the finished details of this model.
Another week, or two, at the most, and we can likely move on to another model.
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F_Smith
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Austin, Tx 78728
May 1999
time: 05:13
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I'll fix that, thanks.
I wasn't thinking -- I did 20 iterations of 5% each, but starting at 0. Needed 21. I hate that 'zero' based thing, I goof it up all the time!
And I know they're not all going to be 0-100. I've only written that one widget. Just wanted to test it online.
I can't wait to work in the econ model. If you use any kind of MVC approach, it'll be simple to merge that into this code.
I'm off to wrestle this beast into submission . . .
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F_Smith
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Austin, Tx 78728
May 1999
time: 05:13
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This might be a good time to post a:
Standard Disclaimer
Anytime you're reading code I wrote, keep in mind:
[*]It ain't perfect. There's a hundred little places (and a few BIG ones, I'm sure) where I've done something dumb, overlooked something obvious, that you will be able to help me with. It's the nature of the beast. When you write thousands of lines of code, it's hard to remember if you used proper grammer back on page 3. So if you see a better way to do it, speak up (or, better yet, code it and test it!!!). The more eyeballs, the faster, tighter, better than it will end up being.
[*]I don't comment much. Sorry. I should comment more. Sue me.
[*]The simple vectors and hashtables can certainly be replaced with more sophisticated Java2 collections. I'm only sticking with them because of IE4's limitations. But dang I miss custom comparators . . .
[/list]
Void where prohibited by law. Relatives need not apply.
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F_Smith
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Austin, Tx 78728
May 1999
time: 05:13
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Mark:
I know, I need to comment more. I typically go back after the whole thing is done and begin to add comments. It shouldn't be a big deal for the DataModel and View code, since I used the MVC approach, usually the code is self-explanatory. For the 'controller' code (the turn-handlers and factories, mostly), I'll try and remember to comment more.
And sure, I'll put something together when I get a chance on Java v. C++.
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F_Smith
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Austin, Tx 78728
May 1999
time: 05:13
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Okay:
We're getting pretty close, now.
Each civ has a govt.
You can define a ruler, with govt preferences.
You can click the 'turn' button, watch one year go by. There's a turn handler system in place, altho all it does right now is set the tax rate to whatever the ruler's pref was, and add one year to the game date.
You can define a culture's attributes. Those will be used in churning the turn cycle.
Next I flesh out the populace more, and work their ideologies into determining the govt policies.
And then add in 'Special Orders' the ruler can use.
Only a few more hurdles . . .
Intersting Side Note: I used a 'GregorianCalendar' object to track the date, and was told that IE can not accept dates prior to 4716 bc.
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axi
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Athens Greece
Sep 1999
time: 07:13
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I'm adding a link in page 2 for functionality purposes:
http://home.austin.rr.com/lostmerch...lashEditor.html
Now, I'm back for just a day, so I'm not able to see or say much but, here I go:
Good things I saw:
1) The downloadable version of the beast opens nicely with the batch file.
2) The beast loads much-much faster now that it's local, but I have opened it online too and it's loading somewhat faster there too.
3) The evil fullscreen is gone and the interior looks damn good now. I love the dropdown menus.
4) Hurrah! I am now able to copypaste from the save window! 
Bad things I saw:
1) You must have made an update yesterday, but you say nothing about it on the webpage. Is the downloadable file altered? I think we need version control (f.e Object bulider v.0.34) and frequent updates. What about the .jar file you were talking about?
2) Something must be wrong with the ClashEditor.html file that comes with the downloadable version. It opens the starting window twice and that window contains no scenario buttons, only one big quit button.
3)You have somewhat widened the text areas in the main window, but not in the edit windows, which are exactly the same.
4) When you select something from the EDIT menu, then it should let you edit an object. The popup windows let you build a new object instead, but you neither can edit it, neither delete it.
5) I once tried to build a civ but the program crashed right after I gave the ruler's name. The second time, after accepting the civ's name, it didn't proceed; the batch file instead was added a few lines indicating some errors. The third time it showed a big window with nothing in it except the name of the civ (I think I've got it this time!). All the times I tried this online, it crashed rightaway.
6) The object editor window doesn't refresh itself, so one can become a surrealist painter if only one has multiple windows open or drags the beast around the corners of his desktop. And what's worse, the online version is terribly slow to respond.
Things I expect to see shortly:
1) The capability to fully edit and delete the objects.
2) The capability to set our own values for the attributes and to define the proper functions between them.
3) Further clarification on what the "culture class" is supposed to do.
4) Further expansion on the social classes, along the lines of the govt model.
5) The implementation of the negotiations mechanism and of ideologies.
Suggestions:
1) Do not rush with the turn logic; there is much more stuff to insert before it makes sense to run turns.
2) Do not bother too much with graphics; on the other hand, a sound interface is neccesary.
Too bad Rodrigo is unavailable right now. He would surely discover plenty of faults in the design that I cannot.
------------------
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
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F_Smith
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Austin, Tx 78728
May 1999
time: 05:13
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Hi, Axi:
Man, your vacation sounds like a dream!!! I'm jealous!
1) I am continually updating the one on the web, for testing purposes. The downloadable file is actually the version control of the moment. That downloadable file will be the last 'release'. The one on the web will have new features that are not fully implemented. A version number is a good idea, I'll put one in.
2) I'll check that out when I get a chance, but the downloadable 'applet' version is kind of unnecessary with a downloadable application version working.
3) As I flesh out the object details, I am fixing that. In the online version, check out editing 'Culture' and 'Civ'.
4) Same as 3. Both Culture and Civ now have details to be edited.
5) This should be working now, online.
6) Yes, that needs work -- the refreshes don't all work the way they're suppose to. I'll fix that a.s.a.p.
* * *
1) As I flesh them out, that is going in. As I said, 'culture' and 'civ' are there now (along with 'ruler', a part of 'civ').
2) Attributes -- in, mostly. Defining functions is next.
3) Check the online version.
4) Social Classes have to be integrated, agreed. One of the next steps.
5) Ideologies is specifically what I will code in tonight/tomorrow night.
* * *
1) Agreed. Altho it's fun to watch the calendar click, and the stats change, so I put in the framework for the turn code, and one simple function -- right now, the 'turn' button will change the govt's tax rate to the ruler's preferred tax rate.
2) I hope you realize that the graphix that are there are merely simple memory images I am drawing with bitmaps and masks. Simple stick figures and line drawings. I have no illusions about my pitiful artistic ability!
3) I do wish Rodrigo could help with this right now.
Good questions, all.
Thanks, Axi. Keep on keeping on. Hope you enjoy your vacation!!! See ya when you get back.
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24-07-2000 02:49
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